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  1. #31
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    The Legion lost the most, giving deference to John Byrne for a take on Superman that is or maybe isn't canon any longer effectively damaged what was a pillar of DC comics, the Legion of Super Heroes, now we are 4 reboots in and none of them have captured the magic or masses of the original run. It just hasn't been the same. The Titans are a close second, the NTT hasn't been the same for me since Titan's Hunt since then has been a string of reimaginings to retcons but it hasn't been the same either. Remember waaaaay back in the day when DC was going to start direct issue (lcbs) issues on high quality baxter paper they chose the LSH and the NTT for the titles, they were that high on the pecking order of titles. Reboots have done nothing but damage both franchises and to this day neither is anyway near it's former glorified status.

    On the positive side though I loved Thomas' JSA/All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc run, and feel that the JSA franchise might be better served on Earth Two, I cannot deny the greatness of the John's JSA on merged earth, with the reimagined Mr. Terrific and giving the JSA a pivotal role even on the 'crowded earth'.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    The Titans are a close second, the NTT hasn't been the same for me since Titan's Hunt since then has been a string of reimaginings to retcons but it hasn't been the same either.
    I agree NTT went way downhill, but I don't think COIE changes were responsible for any of that. More coincidental timing (or writer's block).

    I've never been a fan of Clark!Superboy existing (in the same continuity - early days they were separate continuities and that was fine), because I think it damages Superman's original debut and causes other things I don't like (Superman way more experienced than Wonder Woman and Batman instead of roughly peers - an issue I also have with Diana's rookie-status post-COIE), but I can definitely acknowledge that COIE just blew a hole in the Legion. Absolutely directly responsible for the damage.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-05-2019 at 09:41 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree NTT went way downhill, but I don't think COIE changes were responsible for any of that. More coincidental timing (or writer's block).

    I've never been a fan of Clark!Superboy existing, because I think it damages Superman's original debut and causes other things I don't like (Superman way more experienced than Wonder Woman and Batman instead of roughly peers - an issue I also have with Diana's rookie-status post-COIE), but I can definitely acknowledge that COIE just blew a hole in the Legion. Absolutely directly responsible for the damage.
    Post crisis Diana wasn't any more of a rookie than Clark and Bruce. They had about as much experience and her debut was rather closely after theirs.

  4. #34
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    Booster Gold is either the last DC character created before the effects of Crisis rebooted the universe or he's the first character created after the Crisis rebooted the universe. He didn't have a lot to lose (maybe his Legion connections, but that LSH wasn't retconned for a few years yet) and he mostly gained by being able to bring together different bits of DC continuity and timelines.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Post crisis Diana wasn't any more of a rookie than Clark and Bruce. They had about as much experience and her debut was rather closely after theirs.
    It wasn't really that closely after. Look at Dick Grayson. He was already Nightwing canonically at that point, so he was more experienced than her. Batman had Jason at that point, so he was around for at least a decade.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree NTT went way downhill, but I don't think COIE changes were responsible for any of that. More coincidental timing (or writer's block).
    I agree with you on this. NTT went south (IMO) because:

    1. The loss of George Perez as the artist (this could be reasons 1-99 really)
    2. Marv Wolfman's admitted writer's block during this time
    3. The decision at Wonder Woman that Diana was starting over fresh, therefore totally changing the origin of Wonder Girl and her connection to the Amazons
    4. Jericho was never as interesting a character as Kid Flash/Wally West
    5. Raven was never as interesting being involved with Brother Blood as she was with Trigon/Azareth
    6. Danny Chase - ugh

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    The Legion lost the most, giving deference to John Byrne for a take on Superman that is or maybe isn't canon any longer effectively damaged what was a pillar of DC comics, the Legion of Super Heroes, now we are 4 reboots in and none of them have captured the magic or masses of the original run. It just hasn't been the same. The Titans are a close second, the NTT hasn't been the same for me since Titan's Hunt since then has been a string of reimaginings to retcons but it hasn't been the same either. Remember waaaaay back in the day when DC was going to start direct issue (lcbs) issues on high quality baxter paper they chose the LSH and the NTT for the titles, they were that high on the pecking order of titles. Reboots have done nothing but damage both franchises and to this day neither is anyway near it's former glorified status.

    On the positive side though I loved Thomas' JSA/All-Star Squadron/Infinity Inc run, and feel that the JSA franchise might be better served on Earth Two, I cannot deny the greatness of the John's JSA on merged earth, with the reimagined Mr. Terrific and giving the JSA a pivotal role even on the 'crowded earth'.
    NTT went downhill when Wolfman decided to justify Slade and pretend he did nothing wrong.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I agree with you on this. NTT went south (IMO) because:

    1. The loss of George Perez as the artist (this could be reasons 1-99 really)
    2. Marv Wolfman's admitted writer's block during this time
    3. The decision at Wonder Woman that Diana was starting over fresh, therefore totally changing the origin of Wonder Girl and her connection to the Amazons
    4. Jericho was never as interesting a character as Kid Flash/Wally West
    5. Raven was never as interesting being involved with Brother Blood as she was with Trigon/Azareth
    6. Danny Chase - ugh
    These all make sense. Perez must have added a lot more as the co-creator than we realize, because it's likely not a coincidence that the writing takes gradual but very noticeable down turn as soon as he leaves. Comics wise it just has never been as good since, which is why all the adaptations primarily draw from this era.

    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    NTT went downhill when Wolfman decided to justify Slade and pretend he did nothing wrong.
    Also this. Slade has sucked as a character since the end of Judas Contract until Priest revitalized him.

  9. #39

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    Cassandra Cain changed from a spartan-like asskicker to a sobby little kid in need for hugs who occasionally fights people off-panel. At least it seems like Hill is bringing some of her attitude back.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldGladiator View Post
    The Legion lost the most, giving deference to John Byrne for a take on Superman that is or maybe isn't canon any longer effectively damaged what was a pillar of DC comics, the Legion of Super Heroes, now we are 4 reboots in and none of them have captured the magic or masses of the original run.
    Agreed. Superman took a really big hit after the Crisis for sure. There are good things about the post-Crisis Superman, including the Byrne run, but what we lost outweighed what we gained, and what we gained was incompatible with what we lost. We lost Krypton, and with it, Kal-El as a meaningful dimension of Clark's personality. We lost mild-mannered Clark, and with him, Superman as a meaningful dimension of Clark's personality. We gained a definite location for Smallville and a new focus on Clark's backstory's influence on his character, and with it, years of writers who thought of Superman as a hick on some level, though luckily that was by no means universal. We got Cat Grant, and lost WGBS and Lana's presence there. (Okay, so I guess I'm okay with that one, at least 'til she started being kind of a villain pre-Flashpoint.) We gained a more detailed, characterized Metropolis during the triangle years, but we got it in part because under Wolfman and Byrne, we lost the more sympathetic and more nuanced Luthor some writers like Hamilton and Maggin wrote pre-Crisis.

    But the biggest thing we lost as a result of Byrne's Superman reboot, at least to me, was the Legion. The whole thing got thrown into total disarray by the loss of Superboy and that weird, disjointed series of retcons they did with the pocket universe, Mon-El, Glorith and Valor and whatnot to cover it up. And not all those comics are bad, by any means, but they're pretty bizarre choices, and they complicated everything about a clean simple concept that almost never worked as well again afterward.

    I wish the Legion was popular like it had been back then, but now it can't seem t keep a title on the stands, and this current Legion iteration, I'm not even sure if I want it to succeed, since it started with a pretty big middle finger to Superman himself.
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  11. #41
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    It wasn't really that closely after. Look at Dick Grayson. He was already Nightwing canonically at that point, so he was more experienced than her. Batman had Jason at that point, so he was around for at least a decade.
    That's what I was thinking of.

    1. The loss of George Perez as the artist (this could be reasons 1-99 really)
    I absolutely think this is a major component.

    3. The decision at Wonder Woman that Diana was starting over fresh, therefore totally changing the origin of Wonder Girl and her connection to the Amazons
    Honestly never felt that made that much difference in her (but she has always been far more Titans than WW to me). The only issue with it is that it TPTB feel free to keep tinkering with her origin. And, unlike everyone else, I don't like her first origin, because I don't much separate out golden v. silver age WW, Superman and Batman (since that separation was all kinda retconned into existence, anyway), and it does not time out because Dick was already Robin when Wonder Woman debuted originally. Other characterization issues were a problem, but were with several of them with characters who weren't retconned.

    4. Jericho was never as interesting a character as Kid Flash/Wally West
    I liked Jericho. But also understood him to Perez's baby. I could be wrong about that, though. He didn't get fleshed out as well as he could have, but again, I attribute that to the general downswing of writing not all that long after he debuted. He had less time in a good comic.

    5. Raven was never as interesting being involved with Brother Blood as she was with Trigon/Azareth
    I thought she was just gone way too long after the Trigon battle. I did think Trigon needed to be and stay dead and gone and forgotten as a story. Brother Blood needed to be wrapped up, and was okay, but the Raven usage there wasn't that great. But I definitely thought both Raven and Vic got stuck on repeat-cycle. Raven and her demonic heritage, Vic and his "am I man or machine" - just the same storyline over and over. Neither one has ever really broken free of that for a significant period of time. It's a shame. I didn't realize it until someone pointed it out, but Starfire and losing Tamaran is another repeat-cycle (how many times did that place get conquered/destroyed?).

    6. Danny Chase - ugh
    Yep.

    NTT went downhill when Wolfman decided to justify Slade and pretend he did nothing wrong.
    I'd argue it was already going downhill, but that was an absolute point of disgust for me. I don't mind at all the notion that Terra was evil and had no particular redeeming traits by time we met her. It's acting the same wasn't true for Slade that that makes me want to throw something.

  12. #42
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Superman mostly does not benefit. Other characters as have been detailed here get hurt way more as they don't have his staying power, but they've generally been a net negative even if certain ideas implemented by them are good.

    COIE: Big short term gains by riding a Marvelization wave. But many if not most of these major changes were not befitting the character and began to fester and bite eventually, leading to a more major decline in popularity.

    Zero Hour: Didn't really have much a +/- effect either way, as really the biggest change was giving him a new childhood friend to turn into a villain. Although it did solidify the school jock thing for a good while which is terrible for a Superman origin. But the origin had troubles before this going back to the COIE reboot.

    One Year Later: Pretty much the same deal as Zero Hour. It continued a trend of interchangable origins and confusion about the character's history, but again this was a problem the relaunch itself didn't create.

    New 52: It was the right move to reboot Superman again in totality, and the pre-Crisis inspirations were very welcome, but the endeavor as a whole was poorly planned across the board and it showed. Not enough basic cohesion between titles.

    Rebirth: Not a popular opinion but I think the addition of Jon Kent is actively and majorly harming Superman as we speak. The initiative otherwise went back to a more post-Crisis feel, which was welcomed by some and not others resulting mostly a lateral change. But again, the kid is hurting him big time and its only getting worse as time goes on. If reports to be believed, and I do personally believe them based on the source and what I see as a corroborating chess piece setting going on right now, this will culminate with the 5G initiative, the next relaunch that won't favor the character and quite possibly the worst one yet.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-05-2019 at 12:14 PM.
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  13. #43
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    Donna Troy was hurt most by COIE and most reboots since. The thing that truly ruined Donna's origin (simple and -to me- charming as it was) was Diana debuting after.
    The convoluted twists writers made trying to justify a Wonder Girl before a Wonder Woman still make my head hurt. The nu52 origin could have been made so simple by just having someone else besides Diana save baby Donna from the fire and deliver her to Themiscyra. Instead we got the utterly charmless created-as-a-weapon-to-destroy-Diana crap. My God do I hate that origin. It undermines everything we always liked about Donna. As mentioned, there is a reason "Who Is Donna Troy?" is a classic. It's the only issue of a comic that ever brought me to tears.

    As for the Hawks, all of the ridiculous disruptive nonsense caused by Hawkworld could have been saved by one little sentence on the first page …"Ten Years Ago..."
    This could have saved all of the retrofitting how the Hawks were in the JLA, the Hawkgod/Avatar mindnumbing fiasco.
    The nu52 restart was fine, with the major issue being that it was just boring. The writers played it too coy explaining who the new Carter was, and when they finally got around to it, it was too late. I don't hate the latest Rebirth origin...it's probably the best attempt at tying all the random threads together.

    Fury/Lyta Trevor is another favorite that was ruined by the COIE. The post-COIE introduction of Helena Kosmatos as the Golden Age Fury wasn't totally awful, the problem was it wasn't followed up enough. While Helena's introduction was good, the aspects of how she became connected to the JSA, Hippolyta, and why she gave up baby Lyta were all treated as afterthoughts and throwaway bits. They never had any resonance. I waited for almost 15 years for a reunion between Lyta and Helena that never came. And the nu52 Lyta in Earth 2 had all the same issues as nu52 Donna Troy...likeable heroine turned into angry mercenary. Ugh. I'm secretly hoping that the advent of 1G-2G-3G-4G-5G will give us back a Lyta as daughter to Diana and Steve.

    I'd agree that Aquaman got the best upgrade as a result of rebooting into the nu52. Backstories and mythos were streamlined in a way that has made the character much stronger, with lots of interesting backstory to explore (and no life as a squid creature to explain!!!)

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    But the biggest thing we lost as a result of Byrne's Superman reboot, at least to me, was the Legion. The whole thing got thrown into total disarray by the loss of Superboy and that weird, disjointed series of retcons they did with the pocket universe, Mon-El, Glorith and Valor and whatnot to cover it up. And not all those comics are bad, by any means, but they're pretty bizarre choices, and they complicated everything about a clean simple concept that almost never worked as well again afterward.
    I agree and the same thing applies to Supergirl. The post-Crisis iterations before we got to a new Kara were very bizarre, and seemed like needless complications to avoid a very simple and concise setup (female Kryptonian) that has clear ties to Superman. I have little exposure to Matrix but what I've read about her sounds really dumb for this reason. I do actually own the first of the new Peter David Supergirl trades. I can actually see the appeal of Linda and it plays with interesting ideas...however, it could honestly be about an unrelated supernatural themed superhero and it wouldn't change much. It really does have f*** all to do with Superman, which is probably why the mythos continues on just fine without her.

    IDK, maybe Matrix and/or Linda would have worked better if Kara hadn't been wiped from continuity and they were legacies after her death. Ditching Matrix altogether, maybe Kara's spirit could have merged with Linda to create the Earth Angel of Fire? As it is, it is really baffling to think all of this was intended to be more streamlined than what came before, because it definitely is not.

  15. #45
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Instead we got the utterly charmless created-as-a-weapon-to-destroy-Diana crap. My God do I hate that origin.
    It is terrible.

    As mentioned, there is a reason "Who Is Donna Troy?" is a classic. It's the only issue of a comic that ever brought me to tears.
    I really love the story, too (despite the building still there after so long, which someone in a review pointed out as unlikely). But I love for Donna's pain and joy and the doll and the friendship with Dick. For Donna's feelings about family and finding her heritage. Nothing to do with Diana or Amazons. Though I do think the Amazon upbringing plays well into her friendship with Kory in the earlier NTT.

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