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  1. #46
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I really love the story, too (despite the building still there after so long, which someone in a review pointed out as unlikely). But I love for Donna's pain and joy and the doll and the friendship with Dick. For Donna's feelings about family and finding her heritage. Nothing to do with Diana or Amazons. Though I do think the Amazon upbringing plays well into her friendship with Kory in the earlier NTT.
    The stuff with her mortal family and the Amazons doesn't have to be exclusive though. I think mainly because the whole purpose of Donna's character initially was to be the superheroine called Wonder Girl, so she really does need to have a concise connection to Diana and the Amazons. Without it, she falls apart as we've seen. I agree that having Diana be the one to rescue her has never made complete sense but that's the only thing about her pre-COIE origin that needed tweaking. Everything after it is inferior.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That's what I was thinking of.

    I absolutely think this is a major component.

    Honestly never felt that made that much difference in her (but she has always been far more Titans than WW to me). The only issue with it is that it TPTB feel free to keep tinkering with her origin. And, unlike everyone else, I don't like her first origin, because I don't much separate out golden v. silver age WW, Superman and Batman (since that separation was all kinda retconned into existence, anyway), and it does not time out because Dick was already Robin when Wonder Woman debuted originally. Other characterization issues were a problem, but were with several of them with characters who weren't retconned.

    I liked Jericho. But also understood him to Perez's baby. I could be wrong about that, though. He didn't get fleshed out as well as he could have, but again, I attribute that to the general downswing of writing not all that long after he debuted. He had less time in a good comic.

    I thought she was just gone way too long after the Trigon battle. I did think Trigon needed to be and stay dead and gone and forgotten as a story. Brother Blood needed to be wrapped up, and was okay, but the Raven usage there wasn't that great. But I definitely thought both Raven and Vic got stuck on repeat-cycle. Raven and her demonic heritage, Vic and his "am I man or machine" - just the same storyline over and over. Neither one has ever really broken free of that for a significant period of time. It's a shame. I didn't realize it until someone pointed it out, but Starfire and losing Tamaran is another repeat-cycle (how many times did that place get conquered/destroyed?).

    Yep.

    I'd argue it was already going downhill, but that was an absolute point of disgust for me. I don't mind at all the notion that Terra was evil and had no particular redeeming traits by time we met her. It's acting the same wasn't true for Slade that that makes me want to throw something.
    Animation usually handles Raven, Cyborg, Terra and arguably the entire Titans franchise better than the comics.

  3. #48
    Genesis of A Nemesis KOSLOX's Avatar
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    Booster Gold was completely screwed by New 52/Rebirth
    Pull List:

    Marvel Comics: Black Panther, Captain America, X-Men, New Mutants.
    DC Comics: The Green Lantern, Legion of Super-Heroes, Far Sector.

  4. #49
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    At this point how can you even argue that Cyborg should be disassembled and thrown into the sun. He is so lost and damaged as a character.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    At this point how can you even argue that Cyborg should be disassembled and thrown into the sun. He is so lost and damaged as a character.
    Cyborg is salvageable.Drop the man vs machine storyline, give him a fun and charismatic personality, a rogue gallery that isn't all machines and an actual supporting cast.Once all these things are done all that's left is to pit Cyborg and his supporting cast against villains and we have the beginning of a character defining run.

  6. #51
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Cyborg is salvageable.Drop the man vs machine storyline, give him a fun and charismatic personality, a rogue gallery that isn't all machines and an actual supporting cast.Once all these things are done all that's left is to pit Cyborg and his supporting cast against villains and we have the beginning of a character defining run.
    I don't mind a charismatic personality. I'm wary of "fun" - there's a segment of his fanbase that wants him to happy with his prosthetics from day one and I say if you do that, he's almost not even Vic Stone anymore and is just another cybernetic character with the same name. I do want him to get over the man and machine issue and become comfortable with himself. I'm okay with some nanite-enhancement and him later able to turn himself looking normal, but it's not required to me (but he should have more of his organic body left than movie version). I don't like the godlike power (I've argued for less power for several characters). I absolutely agree with giving him rogues that aren't machines - the machine thing just feel lazy. I'm for a supporting cast and his own title. I am absolutely against making Gar his supporting cast. I'm unwilling to have any other TT downgraded from fellow ensemble to his supporting cast (I like them just as much as him and think they deserve to star, too). Sarah would be fine, of course. New characters, too. Not his father (who I preferred to have died early), because having a dad around would too likely be used to keep him seeming not-quite-grown and dealing with the same issues he did as a teenager. I really want all the NTT to get to grow up. Gar and Raven, especially get hit hard in this regard.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't mind a charismatic personality. I'm wary of "fun" - there's a segment of his fanbase that wants him to happy with his prosthetics from day one and I say if you do that, he's almost not even Vic Stone anymore and is just another cybernetic character with the same name. I do want him to get over the man and machine issue and become comfortable with himself. I'm okay with some nanite-enhancement and him later able to turn himself looking normal, but it's not required to me (but he should have more of his organic body left than movie version). I don't like the godlike power (I've argued for less power for several characters). I absolutely agree with giving him rogues that aren't machines - the machine thing just feel lazy. I'm for a supporting cast and his own title. I am absolutely against making Gar his supporting cast. I'm unwilling to have any other TT downgraded from fellow ensemble to his supporting cast (I like them just as much as him and think they deserve to star, too). Sarah would be fine, of course. New characters, too. Not his father (who I preferred to have died early), because having a dad around would too likely be used to keep him seeming not-quite-grown and dealing with the same issues he did as a teenager. I really want all the NTT to get to grow up. Gar and Raven, especially get hit hard in this regard.
    People who want Cyborg to be cool with his prostethics from day one are unrealistic.He should be over it by the time he reaches the JL or at some point during his tenure with the Titans.

    Personally, I would prefer the NTT to be his supporting cast because it would be a step up from whatever DC is doing with them now.

    Also a Cyborg book featuring some Titans characters is more likely to sell. Cyborg's previous series introduced some interesting concepts, but were dragged down by a lack luster rogue gallery, a poor supporting cast and over reliance on the man vs machine narrative.

    Raven should be Dr. Fate 's apprentice by now.

  8. #53
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I thought about Roy - I think he lost a lot in N52 reboot. But I think he started losing it earlier when they killed off Lian. But I will admit that a lot of that is because I just love daddy!Roy. Liked first-season-Roy on YJ cartoon, too, but his personality didn't seem to have much in common with any version of the comic character I read (there did turn out to be a reason for that, though).

    I prefer a less magical Raven, more akin to her original powerset. I don't know how that meshes with Fate, as I've never read him. Well, I mean, I've read him appear in minor ways in one of two issues of other comics, but don't know what his full powerset is.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-05-2019 at 03:45 PM.

  9. #54
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I agree and the same thing applies to Supergirl. The post-Crisis iterations before we got to a new Kara were very bizarre, and seemed like needless complications to avoid a very simple and concise setup (female Kryptonian) that has clear ties to Superman. I have little exposure to Matrix but what I've read about her sounds really dumb for this reason. I do actually own the first of the new Peter David Supergirl trades. I can actually see the appeal of Linda and it plays with interesting ideas...however, it could honestly be about an unrelated supernatural themed superhero and it wouldn't change much. It really does have f*** all to do with Superman, which is probably why the mythos continues on just fine without her.

    IDK, maybe Matrix and/or Linda would have worked better if Kara hadn't been wiped from continuity and they were legacies after her death. Ditching Matrix altogether, maybe Kara's spirit could have merged with Linda to create the Earth Angel of Fire? As it is, it is really baffling to think all of this was intended to be more streamlined than what came before, because it definitely is not.
    Was it supposed to be streamlined? Because Supergirl, Power Girl and Mon-El were all pretty easy to explain before they got rebooted, and then the writing went through such elaborate hoops to make sure they weren't tied to Superman the way they had been, I never got the impression that anyone cared whether it was streamlined or not. After all, you suddenly couldn't explain either Supergirl or Lar Gand's backstories without referencing parallel timelines, alternate universes, and in Mae's case, Adventure Comics # 271 from 1960!

    (Actually, maybe it really did streamline Power Girl, now that I think of it. After all, it was her pre-Crisis origin that required you to say the words "parallel universe"! Not that anyone really cared about the Atlantean thing when her connection to Superman got unceremoniously severed like that. But I digress.)

    For a while there I was actually trying to use the DC Universe streaming service to chart the entire post-Crisis history of Lar Gand, but I kind of ran out of steam around the time SW6 got their own series. Not to mention that I'm pretty lost regarding the Valor series and how it spins out of Eclipsed, since DCU doesn't have all of Eclipsed...

    Eh, but I agree about Linda being pretty interesting in a way that's closer to Hellblazer than to Superman. It's solid, what I've read of it, but it's really nothing to do with the Man of Tomorrow.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Was it supposed to be streamlined? Because Supergirl, Power Girl and Mon-El were all pretty easy to explain before they got rebooted, and then the writing went through such elaborate hoops to make sure they weren't tied to Superman the way they had been, I never got the impression that anyone cared whether it was streamlined or not. After all, you suddenly couldn't explain either Supergirl or Lar Gand's backstories without referencing parallel timelines, alternate universes, and in Mae's case, Adventure Comics # 271 from 1960!

    (Actually, maybe it really did streamline Power Girl, now that I think of it. After all, it was her pre-Crisis origin that required you to say the words "parallel universe"! Not that anyone really cared about the Atlantean thing when her connection to Superman got unceremoniously severed like that. But I digress.)

    For a while there I was actually trying to use the DC Universe streaming service to chart the entire post-Crisis history of Lar Gand, but I kind of ran out of steam around the time SW6 got their own series. Not to mention that I'm pretty lost regarding the Valor series and how it spins out of Eclipsed, since DCU doesn't have all of Eclipsed...

    Eh, but I agree about Linda being pretty interesting in a way that's closer to Hellblazer than to Superman. It's solid, what I've read of it, but it's really nothing to do with the Man of Tomorrow.
    Well I'm basing it off the general mentality that they felt they needed to do COIE in part to streamline things. Of course, just looking at the Super family, they mad it worse. It's like they wanted to keep the broad strokes of continuity while adhering to the idea that Kal-El was the only ever surviving Kryptonian and never had a career as Superboy, damn the inevitable domino effects that would have. So it's like they had the intention of streamlining it but also wanted a Supergirl, so were like "Oh fuck, ah...let's say Supergirl was from a pocket dimension!" and ran with it. DC's rush to avoid their past for a quick sales boost and lack of foresight has been around for a while.

    I do agree about your points regarding Power Girl and Linda. The parallel reality is a bit wonky, but I think explaining that aspect of her past while explaining all the retcons that cam after are worse. I never understood how having to explain pre and post COIE histories was meant to make anything simpler, it just made things worse. And Linda would be good as a Vertigo type character completely removed from the DCU or at most on the fringes.

  11. #56
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    Harley Quinn lost her innocence and became more Deadpoolish in the new 52 going forward. Truly turned me off to an already enjoyable character who was trying to find her way.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    Harley Quinn lost her innocence and became more Deadpoolish in the new 52 going forward. Truly turned me off to an already enjoyable character who was trying to find her way.
    Was Harley ever innocent? The only difference between Deadpool and Harley is that Deadpool went through(sort of) a better executed redemption arc. He usually tries to do the right thing but his insanity gets in the way and other characters call him out when goes too far. Harley really hasn't had a redemption arc. Writers just say she's a good guy now, but still have her do bad things and the JL gives her a free pass.

  13. #58
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Things Fall Apart View Post
    Booster Gold was completely screwed by New 52/Rebirth
    The Gift and Heroes in Crisis definitely messed him up a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Cyborg is salvageable.Drop the man vs machine storyline, give him a fun and charismatic personality, a rogue gallery that isn't all machines and an actual supporting cast.Once all these things are done all that's left is to pit Cyborg and his supporting cast against villains and we have the beginning of a character defining run.
    (Cough)Bring back his Titans history(Cough).
    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Was Harley ever innocent? The only difference between Deadpool and Harley is that Deadpool went through(sort of) a better executed redemption arc. He usually tries to do the right thing but his insanity gets in the way and other characters call him out when goes too far. Harley really hasn't had a redemption arc. Writers just say she's a good guy now, but still have her do bad things and the JL gives her a free pass.
    There's a kind of girlish innocence to the character that contrasts with how she is also a violent, psychotic, Supervillain...but when you try to make her a hero, it just doesn't work as well in my opinion.

  14. #59
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    (Cough)Bring back his Titans history(Cough).
    I thought it already got brought back? That backstory definitely matters to me. And him being bffs with Gar.

  15. #60
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I thought it already got brought back? That backstory definitely matters to me. And him being bffs with Gar.
    I don't think DC has ever definitively confirmed one way or another if it has or not.

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