Character who gained or lost the most in reboot?

[Digifiend]

Honestly, nearly everyone was made worse from New 52. I just read the Secret Origins series from 2014 - and about half of the origins have already been retconned in Rebirth!

Particular offenders are Cyborg (his Teen Titans history was eliminated), Starfire (ditto), Superman (they ended up killing him off and brought back the old one BEFORE Rebirth!), Spoiler, Orphan, Red Robin (all lost part of their histories - in Spoiler's case being a contradiction as her Batgirl tenure overlaps with Dick Grayson Batman, which stayed in continuity), Donna Troy (left without an origin story - the one given in Rebirth was already obsolete because the JL/Titans writers ignored the Wonder Woman solo book), Superboy, Bart Allen (both replaced with completely different characterisations, and then the originals came back this year), and Wally West (they had to retcon the new one as being the old one's cousin).

[HandofPrometheus]

Wonder Woman, Cassandra Cain, the Birds of Prey and the Titans.



Could you elaborate on what you mean on the last bit please?

Wait, did you mean Deadshot?

The Squad is about to have new life breathed into it by Tom Taylor. Seems like a bad time for him to no longer be connected to them.

Aqualad gaining his mantle and his birthright was handled better in pre-52. The water-bearers and his outfit came from his mom which I loved. He learned of his heritage through what his mother gave him. I love that shes alive in rebirth but hated how all his quirks came from Robin.

Yeah, meant Deadshot. Taylor seems to be the only one to bring some excitement back into the title which sucks because he would probably wrote a damn good Ben.

[Denirac]

Wally West lost the Most

[Buried Alien]

Not to me - like I said, I was asking about personal enjoyment, not popularity. And I much prefer bronze age Batman to the later version. I think he's mean to colleagues (most aren't even friends anymore), emotionally abusive to his Batfam, and I find his extreme emotional damage tedious. I much preferred the healthier family/friend dynamics of earlier (by the bronze age there was more developed characterization and interpersonal dynamics than earlier years). Also before he was Batgod and other heroes were diminished to further glorify. I know my version isn't the popular one, but for personal enjoyment, those are my feelings.

You're in greater company than you think.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Darknight Detective]

You're in greater company than you think.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

While I grew up on BA Batman and it's my favorite for nostalgic reasons, I enjoy a bit of the post-COIE Bruce, too. I like Bats as a curmudgeonly/loner type on the surface, but a softy underneath.

[Jim Kelly]

Yup, Batman is the one who lost the most for me--given he was my favourite comic book character and after his reboots I gradually lost interest in his comic books, to the point now where I only read the comics once in a blue moon.

[phantom1592]

Aquaman was a huge beneficiary of the New 52 reboot. It cleaned up his origin and cast and really helped set the stage for his current come back.

Is that true though? I heard Aquaman's big comeback was Brightest Day. He was already fixed and awesome and riding high before New 52 continued the trend.


My first thought is always Superman. His reboots always destroy so much history and relationships and typically just erase massive chunks of his story and supporting cast. Some may get reintroduced later... but the damage is already done.

[SiegePerilous02]

I have to echo those who say that any Batman after Bronze Age is generally pretty shitty in comparison. That dude was awesome.

QUOTE=phantom1592;4718024]My first thought is always Superman. His reboots always destroy so much history and relationships and typically just erase massive chunks of his story and supporting cast. Some may get reintroduced later... but the damage is already done.[/QUOTE]

The New 52 one for Superman is weird in that it brought back more classic elements and pieces of his history that the Post-COIE in comparison was eager to ditch: Krypto, the Legion connection, Kandor, the Phantom Zone Criminals, George Taylor, Golden age power levels, Susie Thompkins, etc. A reboot as a whole was unnecessary, but that would have been great as a stand alone origin run or re-integreated via flashbacks like Morrison did with his Batman Black Casebook stuff.

Post-COIE was the worst though. Yeah yeah it was very popular at the time, I don't care. What appeals to 80s Marvel fanboys isn't necessarily going to stand the test of time. And it didn't, the Byrne run is REALLY bad. And we're still paying for the long term problems its precedent established.

[Jackalope89]

Jason Todd obviously gained a lot from the from the New52 reboot (just don't let Morrison near him anymore).

Lost: Stephanie Brown, Cass Cain, the NTT, Clark and Lois, Diana...

[mikelmcknight72]

Poor Donna Troy has been damaged by every retcon and reboot since the original Crisis. Her pre-wedding Who is Donna Troy origin was pretty much perfect and beautiful. The really need a reset to that origin. It works best, and it fit the character so well. That said, she at least has been as damaged as some. She still, overall, is recognizable. Joey, on the other hand, is currently Jericho in name only. He started as a gentle, beautiful character who bucked the stereotypes and never let a screwed up father, a somewhat screwed up mother, and the traumatic loss of his voice overcome the goodness within him. Now? He's all edgy, very gray in morality, and leans into the stereotype of straight guys are rough and gay guys are gentle and effeminate. They used to be my two favorite Titans.

[Dred]

I'd typically say Donna, at the very least I think she's the one who gets most consistently screwed over. But the one nice thing about Donna is some of the more awful stuff from her being fucked over before Flashpoint is also gone, so there's some minor positives there.

Wally lost the most because nearly everything before Flashpoint him was some of the best hero comics and character development ever. A decades long act of consistency, tossed away to become the melodramatic racist garbage that was New 52 Wally, retconned away and ruined once again by intentionally shoddy mismanagement, and then ruined AGAIN by some of the most galling character assassination in history in Heroes in Crisis. Seriously, he's been fucked over so badly since Flashpoint they've had to retcon his situation like 5 times already. Superman only needed the one. Donna still needs a second one, admittedly.

Frankly the Titans generation as a whole has the worst run of it besides Dick Grayson (whose only really gotten the **** end of the stick recently), but since Wally had the absolute best of them before the reboot, he lost the most and has had the most precipitous fall since.


The character who gained the most, to me, is easily Aquaman. The majority of his best runs have been most reboot and he had a lot of messy, incongruous history that has better been served being revamped by better writers in the near past. Easily the biggest benefactor of the reboot.

[Cmbmool]

I say Captain Marvel/shazam/Billy Baston lost a bit of charm in the new52. As he became more punk/real than a childhood fantasy come to life. The same could be said for the Shazam family as a whole too given the more modern take on the characters as a diverse group is a smart move, bit making them all one big adopted family is kind of ???. I rather them be friends than a family.

The Batgirl name has just been tarnished post COIE when they kept the Killing Joke and Post new 52 all together.

The Teen Titans suffered the new 52 as its entire history is either gone or in pieces.

The less said about the Flash new 52, the better.

[phantom1592]

I say Captain Marvel/shazam/Billy Baston lost a bit of charm in the new52. As he became more punk/real than a childhood fantasy come to life. The same could be said for the Shazam family as a whole too given the more modern take on the characters as a diverse group is a smart move, bit making them all one big adopted family is kind of ???. I rather them be friends than a family.

Agreed... whatever else has happened to a lot of these characters... Billy's the only who actually LOST HIS NAME?!?! The Shazam family for me is a huge misfire. Just... too many of them with the same powers. IF they HAVE the same powers. That's been pretty vague in itself... Billy used to be Top Dog of the Family... and now he feels lost in the shuffle of a ton of new characters.

Though I gotta say, Darla in the movie was just Adorable.

[Tzigone]

I'm not a fan of the Billy Batson makeover, either. I understand why it was done - kid-on-his-own-with-job is a harder sell now. But I'm not happy with it. Likewise I'm not happy with name change, though I understand it from a business perspective, too. I could be okay with both of of those, even if not my preferred. But I hate the "jerk with a heart of gold" attitude.

Now, I'm somewhat in the minority on Billy and all, anyway, in that I don't like "sweet little innocent Billy" either. He was a normal-acting kid in the original stuff. Yes, good-hearted and I love the idea of the Marvels as incorruptible. But he wasn't 100%-giving and certainly wasn't 100% innocent. I dislike the "little child" aspect projected in some later versions where he's really naive and used as "I used to be less jaded like that" for Superman and rather caricatured. Like from YJ-cartoon - I liked Billy, but Captain Marvel was not good for me. He is also younger in several adaptations so he can be "more innocent" when he was originally 12, and not at all naive or innocent for his age. I don't go for perfect, idyllic Fawcett, because the city wasn't that in the old CM comics (and the CM Jr. comic showed slums and poverty in his city). I wish Billy had gotten the chance to grow organically through the bronze age as other heroes did. Where he could be a fully-fleshed character with nuance but without making him less likable. Instead, when the comic was brought back, they "Holy Molyed" 'em they all became much more comedic characters - sometimes as more a pastiche on the old days than a real reflection of the older comics. Sure, CM had more humor and silliness than CM Jr. in the old days, but lots of comics had a lot of that, and they all change with time in a way the hiatus prevented for this crew. I think the depiction kills a lot of respect for the Marvels. It is certainly not a constant depiction of them (and seems more common in other media than comics), but it annoys me.

I do think part of the fantasy of Billy Batson/CM is that he is an independent kid. I do think it's a harder sell now. I do think of Billy, Freddy, and Mary as "family" though I admit that's more of later invention. I mean, sure Billy and Mary were long lost twins originally, but back then each of the three tended to act independently in separate stories, each as the star. In later versions, they family aspect is played up a lot more. But they are more likely to be sidekicks to Billy instead of independent spin-off heroes (again, this is probably more in other media and fandom than canon).

[Anthony Shaw]

Not to me - like I said, I was asking about personal enjoyment, not popularity. And I much prefer bronze age Batman to the later version. I think he's mean to colleagues (most aren't even friends anymore), emotionally abusive to his Batfam, and I find his extreme emotional damage tedious. I much preferred the healthier family/friend dynamics of earlier (by the bronze age there was more developed characterization and interpersonal dynamics than earlier years). Also before he was Batgod and other heroes were diminished to further glorify. I know my version isn't the popular one, but for personal enjoyment, those are my feelings.

I agree with you. Bronze Age Batman is my favorite incarnation of the Dark Knight.