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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Mutant God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    as long as Lucius tells Wayne flatly, "I'm not cooking your meals, doing your laundry or vacuuming", so be it. (cue the "Batman gets black butler as supposedly progressive" threads).
    I guess Bruce needs more black employees lol.

    Seriously I would like to see a grim/modern version of Aunt Harriet like shes an former Arkham inmate who Bruce decides to give a job to so she can back on her feet until Alfred comes back or maybe some soap opera like shes Catwoman's biological mother or something.
    Skeeter: Hey time traveling O5 members of the X-Men We don't take kindly to people who create a time paradox around here!

    Bartender: Now calm down Skeeter they aint hurtin nobody.

    Skeeter: No! I wanna know som'in from the "O5" How come you cant go back to your own timeline in the first place and how come when Reed Richards "fixed" the universe you wasnt put back and how come the changes that happn to you dont happn to your present day selves?

    Bartender: Skeeter I dont want trouble

  2. #17
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    From CEO to Butler, lol.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Strange pattern, the Bat-Family members with TV shows are kinda written-out of the comics.

    Nightwing in Titans, in comics = Ric.
    Alfred in Pennyworth, in comics = Dead.
    Batwoman (show), in comics = occasional guest appearances.
    That tends to DC's trend. Especially with POC and the younger generation (Tim, Ms Martian, Bart, Conner, Wonder Girl, Bumblebee, Aqualad, Black Lightning's daughters, Static, Cassandra Cain for example).

    Pretty Cyborg is the only POC who have appeared in both medias consistently.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Lady Nightwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    From CEO to Butler, lol.
    This is what gets me. How do you phrase that without it sounding like a slap in the face? How would you explain that at a Wayne enterprise meeting? "I need the CEO to stand down, I have no clean towels and the kitchen bin is overflowing"

  5. #20
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Nightwing View Post
    This is what gets me. How do you phrase that without it sounding like a slap in the face? How would you explain that at a Wayne enterprise meeting? "I need the CEO to stand down, I have no clean towels and the kitchen bin is overflowing"
    I get what you mean. Though I will say in the initial description, I read it as taking over Alfred's "head quarters" role, not his domestic one. Though Alfred's head quarters role isn't usually that large in the comics. And he keeps the CEO job, apparently, given the three hours sleep comment.

    Still not a fan. Like others, I don't especially care to see Lucius brought into a batrole, since the family is big already. Though I guess if they're jettisoning all the others, that won't be an issue. Also, not down for the repeat father/son dynamic. I've complained before about how heroes created in recent decades too often have someone to answer to, a "boss" or someone who can take it away from them (specifically a complaint with early 'Tec Batwoman whose father even arranged her training and such), in a way that earlier-created heroes do not. They too often lack the full independence of earlier heroes. Lucius may or may not be that figure, but Bruce almost certainly will be, and I am just so not interested.

  6. #21
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Like I wrote in another topic (I don't remember in what topic), a writer should know what he can and what he can't write. In my humble opinion kill a character which is fundamental for the framework of the comic book, like Alfred is for Batman, is a wonderful example of what a writer should never do; above all if that killing imply a drastically change in the role of another character (like Lucious), which already has a perfectly definite and fundamental role in the comic book. I wonder if the writers think about the long term consequences that their decisions will have on the comic books they write, or if they don't give a damn.

    I'm sorry if I seems disconsolate, but I'm a little bit disappointed about the evolution of the storytelling in the US comic books.

    P.S. Now I'm ready to see Peter Parker adopted by J.J.J. after the death of aunt May.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 12-04-2019 at 06:04 AM.
    «Let me get this straight: you kink that your client, […], is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands and your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck.»

    «Joker is a violent and inartistic movie, not like that masterpiece of A Clockwork Orange.» Yes, some critic of the AMPAS was able to say that.

    «What weight 6 ounces, sits in a tree and is very dangerous?» «A sparrow with a machine gun!» from "Batman'66 the movie"

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gotham citizen View Post
    Like I wrote in another topic (I don't remember in what topic), a writer should know what he can and what he can't write. In my humble opinion kill a character which is fundamental for the framework of the comic book, like Alfred is for Batman, is a wonderful example of what a writer should never do; above all if that killing imply a drastically change in the role of another character (like Lucious), which already has a perfectly definite and fundamental role in the comic book. I wonder if the writers think about the long term consequences that their decisions will have on the comic books they write, or if they don't give a damn.

    I'm sorry if I seems disconsolate, but I'm a little bit disappointed about the evolution of the storytelling in the US comic books.

    P.S. Now I'm ready to see Peter Parker adopted by J.J.J. after the death of aunt May.
    While I didn't want Alfred to die (and don't think he'll stay dead), I don't think he's fundamental for the framework of a Batman comic. As I said on another thread, I'm kinda sad about Alfred-ever-increasing-importance to Bruce and feel like he displaced Dick a bit there. I also don't prefer him in parental role (which he has been for a long time now), as I've discussed before. Also Alfred and his role are sort of tied in with Bruce's increasing emotionally damaged state over the decades -a hit with the world, but not me.

    I do think killing Alfred and putting Lucius in his place could make fans dislike Lucius. But if Luke is moving over too, then I think more likely people will either just blame editorial (rather than character) or want them to shifted off to another book. It could make both disliked. Or it could go swimmingly and gain a lot of new fans without losing too many existing ones (which is what DC is hoping for). No telling.

    I don't much care for Alfred as an "operations manager" - Batman did fine without for years (I liked Oracle with the Birds instead of running Bat or JL IT for the same reason). And Alfred has only sometimes had that role in the comics. So I feel like this could have been framed entirely differently with Lucius becoming operations-manager, and Alfred staying the butler and parental figure. If Lucius had been brought into his role a couple years before Alfred was killed, it'd have been an easier sell.

  8. #23
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    While I didn't want Alfred to die (and don't think he'll stay dead), I don't think he's fundamental for the framework of a Batman comic. As I said on another thread, I'm kinda sad about Alfred-ever-increasing-importance to Bruce and feel like he displaced Dick a bit there. I also don't prefer him in parental role (which he has been for a long time now), as I've discussed before. Also Alfred and his role are sort of tied in with Bruce's increasing emotionally damaged state over the decades -a hit with the world, but not me.
    […]
    It is my fault, because I started read the Batman stories from the very begins, so there is a huge hole between the stories of early nineties (that I read in this moment) and the King's run, then I took my idea of Alfred's role for granted, while they aren't. My ideas about Alfred are based on the role he had in the comics until the first half of the nineties, in Batman T.A.S. and in the Nolan's movies, where he is basically a discrete adviser (even if in the last Nolan's movie became more a paternal figure) and in his role of butler helps the book to be credible: Bruce Wayne can't do everything alone, so like he needs Lucious Fox to manage the Wayne Enterprises, he needs also Alfred to manage the Wayne Manor, allowing him to be Batman and have a private life. A private life which is necessary, to avoid to give the feeling Bruce Wayne is some kind of sociopath and recover to the stress of his war to Gotham crime.
    In my humble opinion overburden Alfred with a more active role in the Batman battle is a distortion of the character, so from this point of view I agree totally with you; if I have understand what you meant.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but my feelings when a character is heavily distorted (like Alfred who became an operations manager) are that the writer is the one who didn't understand the character, his role in the book and he feels him boring, so he tries to improve the character give him a more important role.
    Last edited by Gotham citizen; 12-04-2019 at 07:13 AM.
    «Let me get this straight: you kink that your client, […], is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands and your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck.»

    «Joker is a violent and inartistic movie, not like that masterpiece of A Clockwork Orange.» Yes, some critic of the AMPAS was able to say that.

    «What weight 6 ounces, sits in a tree and is very dangerous?» «A sparrow with a machine gun!» from "Batman'66 the movie"

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    My ideas about Alfred are based on the role he had in the comics until the first half of the nineties, in Batman T.A.S. and in the Nolan's movies, where he is basically a discrete adviser (even if in the last Nolan's movie became more a paternal figure) and in his role of butler helps the book to be credible: Bruce Wayne can't do everything alone, so like he needs Lucious Fox to manage the Wayne Enterprises, he needs also Alfred to manage the Wayne Manor, allowing him to be Batman and have a private life. A private life which is necessary, to avoid to give the feeling Bruce Wayne is some kind of sociopath and recover to the stress of his war to Gotham crime.
    In my humble opinion overburden Alfred with a more active role in the Batman battle is a distortion of the character, so from this point of view I agree totally with you; if I have understand what you meant.
    I get that. It's just they managed fine without a butler in the very early days (I think Wayne manor has grown to the point where two people couldn't keep in clean, though, and they'd need to hire more help than Alfred to at least come in occasionally), and Alfred was not a "discrete advisor" until the 1960s, at least ('70s is more likely). A friend, yes. An advisor, no. And it was the 1970s where Lucius was introduced, but of course back then Bruce ran the company himself (it also didn't really, properly exist until the 1970s, but it's part of lore now and that's fine). I do agree that Bruce needs a private life. A non-Brucie, non-Batman-justice-oriented (the "alpha Bruce" indicated for next run is no fun for me, either) private life. Actual friends outside the hero community existing even if we rarely see them, etc. I miss the days when he was better-balanced.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but my feelings when a character is heavily distorted (like Alfred who became an operations manager) are that the writer is the one who didn't understand the character, his role in the book and he feels him boring, so he tries to improve the character give him a more important role.
    I feel like too often in these days, there can be no truly civilian characters.

    Though, of course, in the 40s-60s, Alfred did his own investigations (and sometimes heroics, though mostly comedy earlier on). Maybe we should start a thread on how Alfred himself has changed over time.

    Edit: Not sure if I was clear, me talking about Alfred supplanting Dick was not meant in regards to professional role, but in regards to closeness to Bruce. Discussed on this thread.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-04-2019 at 08:03 AM.

  10. #25
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I get that. It's just they managed fine without a butler in the very early days (I think Wayne manor has grown to the point where two people couldn't keep in clean, though, and they'd need to hire more help than Alfred to at least come in occasionally), and Alfred was not a "discrete advisor" until the 1960s, at least ('70s is more likely). A friend, yes. An advisor, no. And it was the 1970s where Lucius was introduced, but of course back then Bruce ran the company himself (it also didn't really, properly exist until the 1970s, but it's part of lore now and that's fine). I do agree that Bruce needs a private life. A non-Brucie, non-Batman-justice-oriented (the "alpha Bruce" indicated for next run is no fun for me, either) private life. Actual friends outside the hero community existing even if we rarely see them, etc. I miss the days when he was better-balanced.
    […]
    That is exactly why I wrote Alfred and Lucius are fundamental for the framework of the book: they help to obtain a better balance in the Bruce Wayne's life. So when I defined Alfred's like a Bruce Wayne "discrete advisor", I meant a person able to help Bruce to reconcile his private life with his battle against the crime.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    […]
    Edit: Not sure if I was clear, me talking about Alfred supplanting Dick was not meant in regards to professional role, but in regards to closeness to Bruce. Discussed on this thread.
    I understood perfectly well what you meant and about Dick I think him and Alfred are two characters perfectly complementary in the Batman life, like Alfred and Lucius are. But I'm not ready to talk about that: there are a lot of things I still need to understand about Batman's world, so I will await.
    «Let me get this straight: you kink that your client, […], is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands and your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck.»

    «Joker is a violent and inartistic movie, not like that masterpiece of A Clockwork Orange.» Yes, some critic of the AMPAS was able to say that.

    «What weight 6 ounces, sits in a tree and is very dangerous?» «A sparrow with a machine gun!» from "Batman'66 the movie"

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    That is exactly why I wrote Alfred and Lucius are fundamental for the framework of the book: they help to obtain a better balance in the Bruce Wayne's life. So when I defined Alfred's like a Bruce Wayne "discrete advisor", I meant a person able to help Bruce to reconcile his private life with his battle against the crime.
    I don't agree. I think actually working in the company and interacting with others would give better balance to Bruce (more interaction with normal people, more of a normal life) than having Lucius run the company. It doesn't make as much logical sense since it's a lot of hours of work, but it would be a great outlet. Alfred is nice, but not necessary, as there are plenty of other people in know that Bruce could talk to. I don't think he needs to be advised by anyone - or rather, he could easily be written as a person who doesn't need advice (he used to be one) and in more recent years he usually doesn't listen and so the "advisor" is used as either an indication of his lack of his emotional/mental health when he doesn't listen or an indication of his "alpha" state when he doesn't listen. Neither of which appeals.

  12. #27
    Winged Freak Terrorizes DC Classics's Avatar
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    The Golden Age 1940s Alfred Beagle was an amateur detective and butler. Beagle is revealed as Alfred's last name in Detective Comics #96 (1945) "Alfred, Private Detective" written by Don Cameron and art by Dick Sprang [reprinted in Batman Archives vol. 4 (1998)]. The Silver Age 1960s Alfred is Alfred Pennyworth and Pennyworth has been carried on in the comics ever since it's stated that the Silver Age Alfred has a brother named Wilfred Pennyworth in Batman #216 (1969) "Angel -- Or Devil?" written by Frank Robbins and art by Irv Novick. The name of the butler that served Thomas Wayne was called Jarvis in Batman #16 (1943) "Here Comes Alfred" written by Don Cameron and art by Bob Kane, Jerry Robinson and George Roussos [reprinted in Batman: The Dark Knight Archives vol. 4 (2003)], and Frank Miller added the concept that the butler that served Thomas Wayne was Alfred himself and that Alfred became Bruce Wayne's legal guardian. So I think his full name now should be Alfred Jarvis Beagle to be truer to the original. Pennyworth is a jokey sounding name for a millionaires butler, that sounds like it's saying "Alfred's only worth a penny, get it?" Alfred is Bruce Wayne's butler, chauffeur, medic, amateur detective assistant and manager of the Wayne Mansion. Additionally, Alfred must have responsibility over the hiring and firing of the Wayne Mansion staff - waiters, wine stewards, casino roulette dealers, the chef and cooking staff, the maids, valets and the estate groundskeepers. And that's all. Alfred couldn't believably do everything at the Wayne Mansion himself, and be a bodyguard, chief of security and inventor of the costumes and weapons, too. Bruce Wayne should be the chief of security with his surveillance cameras, etc., Bruce should be the strategist, inventor of the costumes and weapons, and I don't like the concept that Alfred was Thomas Wayne's bodyguard. If Alfred was Thomas Wayne's bodyguard he must have been a really crappy bodyguard for Thomas Wayne and his wife to get mugged and murdered on the street.
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    Last edited by DC Classics; 12-04-2019 at 10:17 AM.

  13. #28
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Additionally, Alfred must have responsibility over the hiring and firing of the Wayne Mansion staff - waiters, wine stewards, casino roulette dealers, the chef and cooking staff, the maids, valets and the estate groundskeepers. And that's all. Alfred couldn't do everything at the Wayne Mansion, be a bodyguard, chief of security and inventor of the costumes and weapons, too.
    I once read someone say that the most unrealistic thing about the Batman mythos was that Alfred could handle the upkeep Wayne Manor all on his own (in recent decades, as it has grown).

    I think this kinda comes in with what backstory you want for Alfred and what you want for him in the present-tense. As it stands, he's the man-of-all-jobs. Too many jobs. I like the casino roulette dealer job , but it does usually seem like Alfred does all the cooking and cleaning for the place himself. Which is kinda funny since there was an issue in the bronze age where Bruce had a cleaning lady (can't recall how often she came in) at the penthouse. Alfred seemingly used to have more of his own life, too, back before he raised Bruce. He had days out (where we saw wacky hijinks, mostly) and such. Now it all too often seems like his entire life is about Bruce. By extension, the kids, but they are an extension. We don't need to see all his daily life when not at work, but it would be nice to have more of a sense that he had one. Back in the early 2000s when he left Bruce's service (because of Bruce's reaction to Gordon being shot), he just switched over to being Tim's valet (and for some reason he wanted Tim to do a Clark-like disguise, oddly enough). I get that it kept him in the comic, but it's one of those things that makes you wonder if Alfred is just as emotionally unhealthy as Bruce, just in a different way. And once King got ahold of him....
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-04-2019 at 09:53 AM.

  14. #29
    Spectacular Member Gotham citizen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't agree. I think actually working in the company and interacting with others would give better balance to Bruce (more interaction with normal people, more of a normal life) than having Lucius run the company. It doesn't make as much logical sense since it's a lot of hours of work, but it would be a great outlet. Alfred is nice, but not necessary, as there are plenty of other people in know that Bruce could talk to. I don't think he needs to be advised by anyone - or rather, he could easily be written as a person who doesn't need advice (he used to be one) and in more recent years he usually doesn't listen and so the "advisor" is used as either an indication of his lack of his emotional/mental health when he doesn't listen or an indication of his "alpha" state when he doesn't listen. Neither of which appeals.
    Again it is my fault, because if you don't agree with me, but what you write doesn't contradict what I mean (on the contrary I agree again with you), it means I wasn't able to explain what I wanted to say.
    «Let me get this straight: you kink that your client, […], is secretly a vigilante who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands and your plan is to blackmail this person? Good luck.»

    «Joker is a violent and inartistic movie, not like that masterpiece of A Clockwork Orange.» Yes, some critic of the AMPAS was able to say that.

    «What weight 6 ounces, sits in a tree and is very dangerous?» «A sparrow with a machine gun!» from "Batman'66 the movie"

  15. #30
    Winged Freak Terrorizes DC Classics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I once read someone say that the most unrealistic thing about the Batman mythos was that Alfred could handle the upkeep Wayne Manor all on his own (in recent decades, as it has grown).

    I think this kinda comes in with what backstory you want for Alfred and what you want for him in the present-tense. As it stands, he's the man-of-all-jobs. Too many jobs. I like the casino roulette dealer job , but it does usually seem like Alfred does all the cooking and cleaning for the place himself. Which is kinda funny since there was an issue in the bronze age where Bruce had a cleaning lady (can't recall how often she came in) at the penthouse.
    Thanks. The casino roulette dealers, waiters, wine stewards and valets came from Tim Burton's Batman (1989) during that charity ball event. Ordinarily Alfred wouldn't need a chef and full cooking staff, when he's just cooking small meals for Bruce, Richard Grayson, or Bruce on a date with Vicki, or Selina. 'Ol Alfred would realistically regularly need a cleaning staff, though, of maids, and estate groundskeepers for upkeep of the mansion and estate, or the 'ol Wayne Mansion would be as dusty and cobwebbed as Edward Scissorhand's castle. In Starburst #132 (1989) Michael Gough explained, "In real life, the butler is the head of the household. There's the master of the house and the butler and the mistress of the house and the housekeeper, in that order." The only time I saw a maid/housekeeper appearing in the Batman comic books was one maid named Cathy in Detective Comics #397 (1970) the "Paint a Picture of Peril" Orson Welles' Citizen Kane inspired story written by "Dandy" Denny O'Neil, art by "Nefarious" Neal Adams with Giordano inks, Schwartz editing.
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    Last edited by DC Classics; 12-04-2019 at 12:09 PM.

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