Daredevil VS Joker

[Sharpandpointies]

How small are the groups, how much is he struggling, and what makes these people ordinary as opposed to at least comic book level henchmen?

They're crooked cops, so sure, call them comic book level henchmen. The point is, he's getting tagged, beat up, and struggling hard against groups of crooked cops. Like, he catches four of them by surprise, and one of them gets him in a choke hold and almost puts him out (Matt ends up fleeing that fight, not winning it). Another time, he jumps in to help a good cop fight some of the crooked ones, gets tagged a couple of times, and is visibly winded. Again, this is against four to five people, with an ally helping him out.

Also, he fights against that ally (the good cop) in an earlier issue. The guy is a cop. He's a skilled boxer. He's not a peak human; he's not even Silver Sable level, given three or four guys are shown later to be too much for him. He beats all hell out of Matt.

Matt jumps in a room with four street thugs. That's all they are - young dudes with baseball bats and such. He is actually shown using pressure points to take two of them out. However, he gets beat up pretty badly - they land hits on him, tackle him, etc.

Again, these aren't even CBPH types. They're not even below CBPH, skilled comic book martial artists (like Silver Sable level). They're nobodies: crooked cops and street thugs. And they're landing hits on Matt. They're making work hard. He might have even lost the last fight I mention if the kid he was trying to rescue from the street thugs hadn't stepped in and taken out the final thug (who was beating Matt up and almost broke his arm by punching it, that's how far down Matt has come) with a baseball bat.

Compare this to the Matt who is shown fighting evenly or even better than evenly against Captain America. The Matt who takes on roughly 100 Yakuza hopped up on a drug that increases their physical capabilities.

Matt really isn't doing so hot right now.

[The Arbiter]

Dear lord.

Is there an in-comic explanation for his de-powering? Or is it just a general nerf for no reason?

[Nik Hasta]

Dear lord.

Is there an in-comic explanation for his de-powering? Or is it just a general nerf for no reason?

I direct your attention to the critically acclaimed Netflix series wherein Matt is depicted as considerably mow human than his former comics self. There's your reason for a nerf.

Also, having characters be comparatively fragile can be good for dramatic stakes.

[Sharpandpointies]

Pretty much that. They even have him dressed the same as in Netflix.

Apparently he lost his spirit and stopped training/fighting for a while or somesuch.

However, he's being trained by Elektra now, so one wonders how long this will last.

......

I guess it's a good thing, in that it might mean Disney is planning on bringing Daredevil back.

[The Arbiter]

I direct your attention to the critically acclaimed Netflix series wherein Matt is depicted as considerably mow human than his former comics self. There's your reason for a nerf.

Also, having characters be comparatively fragile can be good for dramatic stakes.

Pretty much that. They even have him dressed the same as in Netflix.

Apparently he lost his spirit and stopped training/fighting for a while or somesuch.

However, he's being trained by Elektra now, so one wonders how long this will last.

......

I guess it's a good thing, in that it might mean Disney is planning on bringing Daredevil back.

Hmm I see. Comics do tend to echo the live action Marvel stuff these days.

So he's got a whole "Batman training with Shiva post bane" thing going on right now? Complete with Eye of the Tiger theme music?

I don't mind a nerf here or there. A little tension does the soul good from time to time. I like to have a good reason though and it can't be happening ALL the time in the same manner (looks at Dr. Strange)

[Sharpandpointies]

Hmm I see. Comics do tend to echo the live action Marvel stuff these days.

So he's got a whole "Batman training with Shiva post bane" thing going on right now? Complete with Eye of the Tiger theme music?

I don't mind a nerf here or there. A little tension does the soul good from time to time. I like to have a good reason though and it can't be happening ALL the time in the same manner (looks at Dr. Strange)

My issue with this is that Matt has been beaten into the ground by the nerf bat. He hasn't just lost some of his skill and is losing against people he used to beat. He's getting beat up -- fairly badly -- by people he used to sleep-walk through.

And compared to everyone else in Marvel -- Captain America, Black Widow, etc -- he's less-than dirt, now.

Heck, Vic Sage The Question could probably beat him now.

This isn't a mild nerfing or whathaveyou. This is basically a character redesign to make him fit for a more 'realistic' kind of story.

[Shellhead]

My issue with this is that Matt has been beaten into the ground by the nerf bat. He hasn't just lost some of his skill and is losing against people he used to beat. He's getting beat up -- fairly badly -- by people he used to sleep-walk through.

And compared to everyone else in Marvel -- Captain America, Black Widow, etc -- he's less-than dirt, now.

Heck, Vic Sage The Question could probably beat him now.

This isn't a mild nerfing or whathaveyou. This is basically a character redesign to make him fit for a more 'realistic' kind of story.

Maybe they could finally bring back some of Daredevil's weaker opponents from early in his career, like Leap Frog, the Matador, and the Owl. Fancy Dan might be a fair fight now.

[Sharpandpointies]

Maybe they could finally bring back some of Daredevil's weaker opponents from early in his career, like Leap Frog, the Matador, and the Owl. Fancy Dan might be a fair fight now.

...Stiltman.

[FrenchGemini]

Dear lord.

Is there an in-comic explanation for his de-powering? Or is it just a general nerf for no reason?

What Sharp said, though it started with him getting in a truck accident, which, combined with the various injuries cumulated during his time as Daredevil, almost killed him and put him out of commission for a while. Then he tried to get back on the field without being fully healed, leading to the early fails, and Spider-Man telling him to retire, which he did for a few months. But well, hypersenses making you hear every cry for help in the Kitchen doesn't help to stay retired.

How would Matt get through Joker's damage soak?

And Joker is arguably the faster of the two fighters right now. Lol.

Regarding the first point, Sharp and big said it before me, but pressure points. Regarding the second... up until two issues ago, I would have somewhat agreed with you (even if I don't see Joker blitzing Matt), but now that he's starting to tag Elektra in sparring sessions (in the last two issues), well, I am not arguing he is now at bullet-timing speed again due to 1)not being how it works on Rumbles, 2)being sparring sessions (even if Elektra doesn't seem to be the type to let herself tagged like that), but he seems to be getting some of his groove back. Let's see how he does in the next few issues .

...Stiltman.

Harsh, but true.

Also, good thing that Bullseye didn't go after Matt while he had Valkyrie's sword.

[master of read]

They're crooked cops, so sure, call them comic book level henchmen. The point is, he's getting tagged, beat up, and struggling hard against groups of crooked cops. Like, he catches four of them by surprise, and one of them gets him in a choke hold and almost puts him out (Matt ends up fleeing that fight, not winning it). Another time, he jumps in to help a good cop fight some of the crooked ones, gets tagged a couple of times, and is visibly winded. Again, this is against four to five people, with an ally helping him out.

Also, he fights against that ally (the good cop) in an earlier issue. The guy is a cop. He's a skilled boxer. He's not a peak human; he's not even Silver Sable level, given three or four guys are shown later to be too much for him. He beats all hell out of Matt.

Matt jumps in a room with four street thugs. That's all they are - young dudes with baseball bats and such. He is actually shown using pressure points to take two of them out. However, he gets beat up pretty badly - they land hits on him, tackle him, etc.

Again, these aren't even CBPH types. They're not even below CBPH, skilled comic book martial artists (like Silver Sable level). They're nobodies: crooked cops and street thugs. And they're landing hits on Matt. They're making work hard. He might have even lost the last fight I mention if the kid he was trying to rescue from the street thugs hadn't stepped in and taken out the final thug (who was beating Matt up and almost broke his arm by punching it, that's how far down Matt has come) with a baseball bat.

Compare this to the Matt who is shown fighting evenly or even better than evenly against Captain America. The Matt who takes on roughly 100 Yakuza hopped up on a drug that increases their physical capabilities.

Matt really isn't doing so hot right now.

what really sealed it for me is when one of the people matt beats up ends up dying. matt thinks it was just some trick by mayor kingpin to discredit him. he can't believe he actually killed a guy. then a doctor speaks to him. he says he's been patching up the crooks he;s been beating up for years now and can tell that matt has gotten sloppy with how he fights and how he fights crooks.

honestly, despite how nerf'd he is right now, it's a interesting story to read.

damnit, marvel. why are you making such interesting stories to read these days?

[master of read]

so good news: matt has gotten some of his pre-cog back. he was able to tag electra with a bo staff from a seat position and paralyzed her arm. and then he had a small scuffle were he either doing better or she was going easy on her. point is, matt isn't so rusty anymore.

bad news: his new girlfriend left him, mostly she got tired of being told what to do by men. even though matt told her to get out hells kitchen because a gang war is coming and the cops are staying out of HK.

[big_adventure]

What Sharp said, though it started with him getting in a truck accident, which, combined with the various injuries cumulated during his time as Daredevil, almost killed him and put him out of commission for a while. Then he tried to get back on the field without being fully healed, leading to the early fails, and Spider-Man telling him to retire, which he did for a few months. But well, hypersenses making you hear every cry for help in the Kitchen doesn't help to stay retired.



Regarding the first point, Sharp and big said it before me, but pressure points. Regarding the second... up until two issues ago, I would have somewhat agreed with you (even if I don't see Joker blitzing Matt), but now that he's starting to tag Elektra in sparring sessions (in the last two issues), well, I am not arguing he is now at bullet-timing speed again due to 1)not being how it works on Rumbles, 2)being sparring sessions (even if Elektra doesn't seem to be the type to let herself tagged like that), but he seems to be getting some of his groove back. Let's see how he does in the next few issues .



Harsh, but true.

Also, good thing that Bullseye didn't go after Matt while he had Valkyrie's sword.

Eh, Matt was playing Heimdahl too, though, and that's a pretty big edge on "Valkyrie."

[Sharpandpointies]

what really sealed it for me is when one of the people matt beats up ends up dying. matt thinks it was just some trick by mayor kingpin to discredit him. he can't believe he actually killed a guy. then a doctor speaks to him. he says he's been patching up the crooks he;s been beating up for years now and can tell that matt has gotten sloppy with how he fights and how he fights crooks.

honestly, despite how nerf'd he is right now, it's a interesting story to read.

damnit, marvel. why are you making such interesting stories to read these days?

I agree that it's interesting. I have zero issues with reading it, and it's a good write on actions and consequences. I'm enjoying it.

The nerf does feel particularly...excessive, is all. Not in that it 'ruins the character' or somesuch, but that it's senselessly huge.

bad news: his new girlfriend left him, mostly she got tired of being told what to do by men. even though matt told her to get out hells kitchen because a gang war is coming and the cops are staying out of HK.

It's that, and it's that Matt was a dick in other ways. Mindy had good reasons to be honked off at him.

[The Drunkard Kid]

Is he really so weak now that someone significantly below CBPH can take him?

Has he forgotten his skills and pressure points and such? Even if he's not bullet-timing or limo-lifting, he's still a super duper top tier comic book martial artist with all kinds of tricks up his sleeve.

I don't know that I would say Joker is *significantly* below peak human, at least in terms of some of his stats. His speed, especially, is something that Batman has commented on being sufficient enough to actually land clean hits if Bruce doesn't bring his A game, and he has landed at least one hit on R'as AlGhul. And that's to say nothing of his freakish soak.

[MichaelC]

Yeah, Joker is tough, fast, and accurate. He really just seems to lack strength. He's that rare case where the strength of a skinny street-leveler is portrayed realistically, even if nothing else about him is realistic.