Daredevil VS Joker

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Daredevil is weak now. Coukd Joker beat him?

1) H2H

2) Standard gear

Post crisis or new 52 since I don't know anything about rebirth

[big_adventure]

Is he really so weak now that someone significantly below CBPH can take him?

Has he forgotten his skills and pressure points and such? Even if he's not bullet-timing or limo-lifting, he's still a super duper top tier comic book martial artist with all kinds of tricks up his sleeve.

[Sharpandpointies]

He's for sure still using pressure points and the like. But he's struggling with small groups of ordinary people, now. It's ridiculous.

[big_adventure]

He's for sure still using pressure points and the like. But he's struggling with small groups of ordinary people, now. It's ridiculous.

Sadness and weeping. I guess half of DD's entire run is about him suffering, but... yeah, sadness.

[Güicho]

Joker: You ever dance with the....?

DD: I am the devil in the pale moonlight.

[master of read]

Sadness and weeping. I guess half of DD's entire run is about him suffering, but... yeah, sadness.

well, it's not all suffering since he's banging a hot book store owner.

who also happens to be married.

and her in-laws happen to be one of the biggest crime families in the city.

huh.

[Shellhead]

well, it's not all suffering since he's banging a hot book store owner.

That's still sad, because Daredevil can't even see that she is hot.

[Jonathan]

He's for sure still using pressure points and the like. But he's struggling with small groups of ordinary people, now. It's ridiculous.

How small are the groups, how much is he struggling, and what makes these people ordinary as opposed to at least comic book level henchmen?

[Sharpandpointies]

How small are the groups, how much is he struggling, and what makes these people ordinary as opposed to at least comic book level henchmen?

They're crooked cops, so sure, call them comic book level henchmen. The point is, he's getting tagged, beat up, and struggling hard against groups of crooked cops. Like, he catches four of them by surprise, and one of them gets him in a choke hold and almost puts him out (Matt ends up fleeing that fight, not winning it). Another time, he jumps in to help a good cop fight some of the crooked ones, gets tagged a couple of times, and is visibly winded. Again, this is against four to five people, with an ally helping him out.

Also, he fights against that ally (the good cop) in an earlier issue. The guy is a cop. He's a skilled boxer. He's not a peak human; he's not even Silver Sable level, given three or four guys are shown later to be too much for him. He beats all hell out of Matt.

Matt jumps in a room with four street thugs. That's all they are - young dudes with baseball bats and such. He is actually shown using pressure points to take two of them out. However, he gets beat up pretty badly - they land hits on him, tackle him, etc.

Again, these aren't even CBPH types. They're not even below CBPH, skilled comic book martial artists (like Silver Sable level). They're nobodies: crooked cops and street thugs. And they're landing hits on Matt. They're making work hard. He might have even lost the last fight I mention if the kid he was trying to rescue from the street thugs hadn't stepped in and taken out the final thug (who was beating Matt up and almost broke his arm by punching it, that's how far down Matt has come) with a baseball bat.

Compare this to the Matt who is shown fighting evenly or even better than evenly against Captain America. The Matt who takes on roughly 100 Yakuza hopped up on a drug that increases their physical capabilities.

Matt really isn't doing so hot right now.

[The Arbiter]

Dear lord.

Is there an in-comic explanation for his de-powering? Or is it just a general nerf for no reason?

[master of read]

They're crooked cops, so sure, call them comic book level henchmen. The point is, he's getting tagged, beat up, and struggling hard against groups of crooked cops. Like, he catches four of them by surprise, and one of them gets him in a choke hold and almost puts him out (Matt ends up fleeing that fight, not winning it). Another time, he jumps in to help a good cop fight some of the crooked ones, gets tagged a couple of times, and is visibly winded. Again, this is against four to five people, with an ally helping him out.

Also, he fights against that ally (the good cop) in an earlier issue. The guy is a cop. He's a skilled boxer. He's not a peak human; he's not even Silver Sable level, given three or four guys are shown later to be too much for him. He beats all hell out of Matt.

Matt jumps in a room with four street thugs. That's all they are - young dudes with baseball bats and such. He is actually shown using pressure points to take two of them out. However, he gets beat up pretty badly - they land hits on him, tackle him, etc.

Again, these aren't even CBPH types. They're not even below CBPH, skilled comic book martial artists (like Silver Sable level). They're nobodies: crooked cops and street thugs. And they're landing hits on Matt. They're making work hard. He might have even lost the last fight I mention if the kid he was trying to rescue from the street thugs hadn't stepped in and taken out the final thug (who was beating Matt up and almost broke his arm by punching it, that's how far down Matt has come) with a baseball bat.

Compare this to the Matt who is shown fighting evenly or even better than evenly against Captain America. The Matt who takes on roughly 100 Yakuza hopped up on a drug that increases their physical capabilities.

Matt really isn't doing so hot right now.

what really sealed it for me is when one of the people matt beats up ends up dying. matt thinks it was just some trick by mayor kingpin to discredit him. he can't believe he actually killed a guy. then a doctor speaks to him. he says he's been patching up the crooks he;s been beating up for years now and can tell that matt has gotten sloppy with how he fights and how he fights crooks.

honestly, despite how nerf'd he is right now, it's a interesting story to read.

damnit, marvel. why are you making such interesting stories to read these days?

[The Drunkard Kid]

Is he really so weak now that someone significantly below CBPH can take him?

Has he forgotten his skills and pressure points and such? Even if he's not bullet-timing or limo-lifting, he's still a super duper top tier comic book martial artist with all kinds of tricks up his sleeve.

I don't know that I would say Joker is *significantly* below peak human, at least in terms of some of his stats. His speed, especially, is something that Batman has commented on being sufficient enough to actually land clean hits if Bruce doesn't bring his A game, and he has landed at least one hit on R'as AlGhul. And that's to say nothing of his freakish soak.

[MichaelC]

Yeah, Joker is tough, fast, and accurate. He really just seems to lack strength. He's that rare case where the strength of a skinny street-leveler is portrayed realistically, even if nothing else about him is realistic.

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

I don't know that I would say Joker is *significantly* below peak human, at least in terms of some of his stats. His speed, especially, is something that Batman has commented on being sufficient enough to actually land clean hits if Bruce doesn't bring his A game, and he has landed at least one hit on R'as AlGhul. And that's to say nothing of his freakish soak.

Yeah. Joker is defintely being undersold here. Even with the newest reveleation, I'm not sure you could say Matt is much faster. Like a spar is still a spar. Batman has tagged Wonderwoman in spar for instance... Matt explictly has improved of course, but it's still iffy.

Still give Joker the win if he has a gun or knife at this point.