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Thread: Lex Luthor

  1. #1

    Default Lex Luthor

    So Lex's deal is he believes Superman, an alien, makes the human race seem inferior.
    Now we know when he says 'human race' he just means himself, but that's what he claims.

    But this makes me think about how he regards (or should regard) Wonder Woman.

    As we know, officially, according to DC Diana is 'second only to Superman' in power. So therefore she is Earth's most powerful native-born defender.

    Does that mean anything to Luthor? Should it?

    Yeah, he could easily see her divine heritage as automatic disqualification, but what if he did (or outwardly claim to) hold Diana in some special regard or respect because she's, in his view, 'one of us' as opposed to an alien?

    I don't know where this would go.
    Even if Luthor was genuine, no way Diana would trust him--and she'd probably be put-off by his 'native vs. alien' perspective. And being Luthor, he would certainly try to weaponize it against Superman in some way, even if he did like/respect her.

    I'm just thinking it could be interesting if there was something to Wonder Woman and Lex Luthor's relationship. Tension, suspense, drama...it could even just be funny if Lex hates all the heroes except Diana (sort of).

    As it stands, they just seem to vaguely dislike each other via association with Superman.

    "Ah, my old arch-nemesis Superman......and Wonder Woman, to whom I've fairly indifferent."


    Food for thought.
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  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I think he also would feel that way at Diana. The amazons are know their own sub-group. And they have their own tech. Which is often seen as greater than anything Lex or Batman can make

  3. #3
    Amazing Member Heavunion's Avatar
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    Well, I guess we should define what is Lex's relationship to actual Gods since that's what Diana is, or at least one of their descendants. Does Lex hates all gods the same or is his hate focus on Superman because in no way does he deserves to be worshipped but he respects that actual God are worshipped with would make Diana more legit in some way.

    I think it would be a interesting thing if Lex actually thought that Wonder Woman was worthy and tried to get her to be the God he wants which would make it different that how he is with Superman where he is more interested in taking away what makes him Super. Plus, that would put him at odds with Veronica Cale and I would love to see a battle between those two

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I think it would be a interesting thing if Lex actually thought that Wonder Woman was worthy and tried to get her to be the God he wants which would make it different that how he is with Superman where he is more interested in taking away what makes him Super. Plus, that would put him at odds with Veronica Cale and I would love to see a battle between those two
    I don't think it makes sense for Lex. She is "other" - either by being half divine or clay-molded. That's a no-no to him. At best, he might try to control/manipulate her by appealing to her "humanity" in contrast to Superman, but that's an early-game tactic bound to fail. And I'd never have her naive (or xenophobic) enough to buy it for one second.

    Also, I don't want to see it. She will never be anything but second-tier importance to him. Or at least, shouldn't be, since Clark's star-villain shouldn't be given to Diana. And even if he was, the broader fanbase would always think of her dealing with Superman character. Far better to build up her own supporting gallery strongly (including villains) than to poach others. And I don't like the "sympathetic" (rarely saw him that way) version of Lex that writers would be so tempted to go with in her comic if he had that role (possibly ending up with different LL characterizations in different books). Give me a fully evil Lex Luthor any day. Of course, I'm also not that into Cale (villains really do bore me in general, being only obstacles for heroes to overcome) and I prefer the non-daughter-having version there, too.

    Ultimately, I feel Lex Luthor wants to be the most powerful being on earth. Other powerful beings are only desirable if they can be tools for him to control, himself exerting power over them and being, well, the most powerful being on earth. And that will not and should not be possible with Diana.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-04-2019 at 05:13 AM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavunion View Post
    Well, I guess we should define what is Lex's relationship to actual Gods since that's what Diana is, or at least one of their descendants. Does Lex hates all gods the same or is his hate focus on Superman because in no way does he deserves to be worshipped but he respects that actual God are worshipped with would make Diana more legit in some way.

    I think it would be a interesting thing if Lex actually thought that Wonder Woman was worthy and tried to get her to be the God he wants which would make it different that how he is with Superman where he is more interested in taking away what makes him Super. Plus, that would put him at odds with Veronica Cale and I would love to see a battle between those two
    That is a good point, and the answer could also vary depending on which origin--the clay or Zeus' daughter.
    But I think it would be interesting if, out all the superpowered beings, Diana was the only one Luthor allowed some measure of respect.

    This also made me think of something else...
    This is partially my own interpretation, but I don't think Diana likes it when people regard and treat her as 'not human.' I mean, does anyone enjoy being dehumanized? But I always saw it as hurting Diana more than she lets on when people (including her own friends) suggest she's not really human.

    So how twisted would it be if, of all people, Lex Luthor considered her fundamentally a human being despite the circumstances of her birth?

    Yeah, most likely he would be trying to manipulate her, but what if he really did mean it?
    Diana could easily find out with the Lasso, but I think she'd almost prefer it if Lex was lying and trying to manipulate her.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Also, I don't want to see it. She will never be anything but second-tier importance to him. Or at least, shouldn't be, since Clark's star-villain shouldn't be given to Diana. And even if he was, the broader fanbase would always think of her dealing with Superman character. Far better to build up her own supporting gallery strongly (including villains) than to poach others.
    I'm not suggested she "poach" other villains, but I do think it would validate Diana's stature if A-list villains aside from her own regarded her as...anything.

    To make a comparison...the Joker is and always will be Batman's villain. Yet he is regarded by everyone in the DC universe. Even Darkseid has acknowledged the Joker as being too chaotic and unpredictable for him. Stuff like that makes a character seem like a big deal.

    So what would make Diana seem like a more important character in the grander DC universe? If Lex Luthor, major A-list villain...
    a) hated her as much as Superman, but perhaps in a different way
    b) held a strange and uncharacteristic respect or even fondness for her
    or
    c) didn't think about her at all because she's beneath his notice
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  6. #6
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    To make a comparison...the Joker is and always will be Batman's villain. Yet he is regarded by everyone in the DC universe. Even Darkseid has acknowledged the Joker as being too chaotic and unpredictable for him. Stuff like that makes a character seem like a big deal.
    Sure, they acknowledge him - but he doesn't play any sort ongoing part in their stories. I also kinda hate that about the Joker, feel him very over-exposed and over-powered, but that's a separate issue.

    And that's villain-judgement on villain, anyway, not on heroes.

    So what would make Diana seem like a more important character in the grander DC universe? If Lex Luthor, major A-list villain...
    a) hated her as much as Superman, but perhaps in a different way
    b) held a strange and uncharacteristic respect or even fondness for her
    or
    c) didn't think about her at all because she's beneath his notice
    None of the above. The villain should never define the hero.

    The Joker doesn't (usually) care about Superman. That's fine, and doesn't make Superman less important, because the Joker is about Batman. That's his thing. And Superman is Lex's.

    I guess we have different goals - mine is not to make Diana the most important character in the universe. Important, yes, but not the most important - and mostly from a meta sense. There's no reason every one else's villains should think on her except when they happen to come head to head. I also don't think that internally heroes should rank each other. Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman should see Blue Beetle and Elongated Man and Black Canary as equals.

    I don't think heroes need validation from other heroes' villains. And Lex's feelings about Superman should be about Lex's blind emotions - not indicative of the actual importance of anyone. He should be wrong sometimes in the sense of not regarding threats as threats because he thinks them beneath him. I dislike Lexgod as much as I dislike Batgod. Indeed, I'd much rather see Lex completely disregard someone small and get stomped on it than see Diana "elevated" by Lex having a particular care for her.

    A lot of people want their favorites to be the most powerful and the most important and that's just not my thing. I want most of the heroes to lose a little power (I find stories more interesting that way) and want villains generally fixated on their particular hero because that's the one that matters to them rather than as a hierarchical view where all the villains only care (or care most) about the power players. That's a terrible dynamic to me, and will leave lesser-powered heroes with villains that really don't give a crap about them or regard them as unimportant or "lower" than big-power heroes. It does a disservice to so many. No dice for me.

    Should Wonder Woman's raw power and skill be acknowledged by other villains - sure. Does that mean they need to care about her or be interested in her in particular - no.

    Most importantly, villains should never write the script. They never get to decide who is important or who matters. Because they are villains with twisted views of human worth. When a villain says someone is worthless, unimportant, or not worth thinking about, the audience should always think them wrong, and want to see it proved.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 12-04-2019 at 06:52 AM.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I guess we have different goals - mine is not to make Diana the most important character in the universe. Important, yes, but not the most important - and mostly from a meta sense. There's no reason every one else's villains should think on her except when they happen to come head to head. I also don't think that internally heroes should rank each other. Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman should see Blue Beetle and Elongated Man and Black Canary as equals.

    A lot of people want their favorites to be the most powerful and the most important and that's just not my thing. I want most of the heroes to lose a little power (I find stories more interesting that way) and want villains generally fixated on their particular hero because that's the one that matters to them rather than as a hierarchical view where all the villains only care (or care most) about the power players. That's a terrible dynamic to me, and will leave lesser-powered heroes with villains that really don't give a crap about them or regard them as unimportant or "lower" than big-power heroes. It does a disservice to so many. No dice for me.

    Should Wonder Woman's raw power and skill be acknowledged by other villains - sure. Does that mean they need to care about her or be interested in her in particular - no.

    Most importantly, villains should never write the script. They never get to decide who is important or who matters. Because they are villains with twisted views of human worth. When a villain says someone is worthless, unimportant, or not worth thinking about, the audience should always think them wrong, and want to see it proved.
    At no point did I suggest this, nor was my Joker example to imply a hero needs a villain's seal of approval. I also don't see how Lex Luthor having an opinion of Wonder Woman beyond nebulous disdain somehow lessens Blue Beetle or Elongated Man.

    Your point of view sounds too rigid and suffocating. Characters should only stay in their specifically defined lane and go no further than their clearly defined ceiling. That to me sounds more hierarchical.
    If all these characters have to exist in the same shared universe, I'd rather they be more fluid and dynamic. Lex Luthor holding Wonder Woman in some particular regard doesn't invalidate the importance of characters like Blue Beetle because, as you said, he doesn't decide who matters and who doesn't.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I don't think Lex would be much more fond of the Amazons than he is of aliens. Lex is xenophobic; his whole deal is wanting humanity (by which he means himself, as humanity's greatest specimen) to lead humanity. He doesn't want outside forces charting our evolution. And the Amazons likely count in Lex's head as The Other. I do think he'd regard them differently than he does a space alien like Clark, but at best he might consider the Amazons to be a wayward branch of humanity who need to be corrected and brought back into the fold (under his supervision and control, of course). But they've got tech and magic he doesn't, a culture he can't understand, and he'd never trust them to have a say in things. Lex probably believes the best outcome for the Amazons is for them to rejoin global society, reintegrate into our ways while abandoning their own, and then stand quietly in the corner until Lex tells them who to stab.

    Diana herself......I'm not sure how Lex would feel about her. On one hand, she's been raised to make the hard choices of a leader. She's pragmatic in a way most heroes aren't and she understands politics. Lex might actually respect her more than most heroes for those attributes. He might see potential in Diana, if only she would shed the heroic ideals that hold her back. But I think her origin means Lex would never accept or trust her very far. Maybe she could be a ruthless, efficient leader (which Lex would approve of) but whether she's made from clay or the daughter of gods, she's not fully human in Lex's eyes. Who knows what kind of anti-human policy she might support? She's either a demigod (and we all know the gods aren't kind to humanity) or a golem (and not even technically alive by Lex's reckoning).

    I suppose he'd find her an intriguing individual but until her mission to spread Amazon philosophy really takes off and starts having a major impact, or unless they end up butting heads in the same arena (like the UN) I think she'd only be on the periphery of his vision.
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  9. #9
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    One of the things I think Frank Miller got right in his Superman Year One was to present Lex Luthor as deeply misogynistic. One side effect of that he will always underestimate Diana. He might say she has more political savvy than Batman or Superman (if the writers allowed her to be presented her that way…), but it'd be more a sign how lowly he thinks of Batman or Superman in that regard.
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  10. #10
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    Except for those few panels from the "Day in the Life" issue from PJ, I'm not sure I remember them ever interacting in any meaningful way. And I don't recall those panels being especially meaningful - just establishing that Diana was a naive ambassador and Luthor is a jackass.

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