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  1. #451

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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    But why though.

    You, and a few other like-minded individuals, post the same criticisms on these threads, week after week, in a manner that can be best described as stubbornly inconsolable.
    It's pretty clear that the group is not a fan of Hickman's writing or the current direction of the line.

    So what do you all get from reading something you don't like?
    What do you all get from repeatedly posting the same criticism? Do you hope that it will be noticed and incorporated it into the writing?
    Have you found that you've changed any one's mind or gathered new support?
    Is this a part of your grieving process?

    I ask because I find the behavior curious, and I worry the group is finding relief in attempting to stymie enthusiasm for the book. Maybe it is a grieving process; is that so unheard of when you love these characters so much and feel so passionate?

    Most people in that situation would say their peace, and move on for a while.
    I found myself in similar predicament with Spider-Man and OMD. It became very clear that the book I wanted was not the book I was going to get, so I left.
    At no point did I try exorcise my feelings by posting constant criticism.
    You really underestimate how much these characters mean to people, thus how hard it is just to 'break away.' Can't do it: we're too attached, we love 'em too much.

    Besides; isn't what these forums are for? To express "I like this" or "I don't like this," not just one or the other? It's a way to vent, to put thoughts down and reflect upon; it's as cathartic as can be engaging on a critical level.

    Besides, if the same complaints are coming up then maybe we should ask why, rather than just brushing people off and saying "You're wrong and dumb and whining." And if they do further persist then maybe it is an issue with the writing itself? I've found that often just gets brushed off with "That's just Hickman's style."

    Well...so? Doesn't mean it's perfect or above reproach. A public forum is the place to put these thoughts, good or bad.

    But nobody should be trying to take from anyone's fun. The conversation this comment came from, in fact, wasn't even meant to be a criticism directly. I was agreeing with someone who pointed out that Claremont was a much, much different take than Hickman and I elaborated why.

    That snowballed into its' own thing.

    And, also, on the topic of people disagreeing with the praise; I mean, I could say the same about "What's the point in posting about how good you find this?" But I won't because that's the point of the forum, much the same as how people post on twitter; to have our voices heard and opinions out there. Who knows, maybe it will be taken into consideration, it's not unusual in terms of market research, but I digress.
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 12-06-2019 at 11:59 AM.

  2. #452
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Hallelujah!
    How many times has Lord Claremont-the Gawd of Character Development, washed rinsed recycled his "Days of Our Lives" relationship dramas only to have the characters right back where they started...neither better, stronger, wiser for having gone through the mess?
    Edit...
    @JKtheMac...I appreciate your knowledge and understanding.
    Well quite. It’s fun and entertaining but it is not character driven IMO. It is Plot Driven with lots and lots of character arcs that don’t really help the story get anywhere. So while I do like his work and his style it can’t really be used as a benchmark of how to write.

    We could argue that some specific arcs, like the Dark Phoenix Saga are Character Driven stories in their own right, but they are not super coherent. Indeed it occurs to me that the biggest problem with the later retellings of that arc is that turning it into a pure Character Driven movie is not very easy.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 12-06-2019 at 02:04 PM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I think that Fubar and I want character development and character relationships being developed instead of vague hints about a polyamori that doesn't suit these characters.
    I'm not expecting Claremont-formula character development. Hickman isn't Claremont. Also, Hickman's run is a soft reboot rather than a continuation of the preexisting canon so I don't expect anyone to be faithfully "in-character." I accept that this new era of X-Men is a reinvention, not an extension.

    What I would like, though, is for any dramatic changes (i.e. Scott and Jean going poly) to be played seriously and not tossed off as a nasty joke/middle finger for the lulz. For one, I think it makes for better stories. For another, trolling is juvenile bullshit, fandom politics really shouldn't have a role in driving stories, and such trolling and meta-commentary takes the franchise backward more than forward. It's yet another tedious argument about the past rather than a fresh push into the future.

    For the most part, Hickman's been doing new things and going in a new direction. I'd rather he keep doing that than waste time and page count trolling.

    ignore isn't a option
    That's just myownlittleusername's passive-aggressive way of telling me to shut up. If he doesn't like my posts, he should just put me on his Ignore List. I've put him on mine.

  4. #454
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I missed it, but was there a reason they portaled to Australia to get a ride from Gateway
    ...
    It just seemed like a wasted step
    Someone else already mentioned why some of the others were not available, but I do wonder why they had to actually go to Australia. Gateway went to wherever the Marauders were hanging out to give them a ride back to Krakoa or wherever.

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Hallelujah!
    How many times has Lord Claremont-the Gawd of Character Development, washed rinsed recycled his "Days of Our Lives" relationship dramas only to have the characters right back where they started...neither better, stronger, wiser for having gone through the mess?
    In his original run, Claremont typically didn't hit the reset button on his characters. Back then, he was very much on the "change" side of the "change vs. illusion of change" argument. What happened is other writers would reset those characters once they were away from Claremont, ignoring any character development he wrote.

    That changed when he returned to Marvel in the late 90s. First, Claremont got in the habit of ignoring changes other writers made to his characters that he didn't like. Second, he got on the "illusion of change" bandwagon.

  6. #456
    Incredible Member silence.'s Avatar
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    So Hickman is using this specific series to basically draw out the world more and create a bunch of antagonists for this new X-World, possibly for others to pick up some day down the line. Here for it. I like the use of this series as basically a 'zoom out' of the other books for world building.

  7. #457
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    You really underestimate how much these characters mean to people, thus how hard it is just to 'break away.' Can't do it: we're too attached, we love 'em too much.

    Besides; isn't what these forums are for? To express "I like this" or "I don't like this," not just one or the other? It's a way to vent, to put thoughts down and reflect upon; it's as cathartic as can be engaging on a critical level.

    Besides, if the same complaints are coming up then maybe we should ask why, rather than just brushing people off and saying "You're wrong and dumb and whining." And if they do further persist then maybe it is an issue with the writing itself? I've found that often just gets brushed off with "That's just Hickman's style."

    Well...so? Doesn't mean it's perfect or above reproach. A public forum is the place to put these thoughts, good or bad.

    But nobody should be trying to take from anyone's fun. The conversation this comment came from, in fact, wasn't even meant to be a criticism directly. I was agreeing with someone who pointed out that Claremont was a much, much different take than Hickman and I elaborated why.

    That snowballed into its' own thing.

    And, also, on the topic of people disagreeing with the praise; I mean, I could say the same about "What's the point in posting about how good you find this?" But I won't because that's the point of the forum, much the same as how people post on twitter; to have our voices heard and opinions out there. Who knows, maybe it will be taken into consideration, it's not unusual in terms of market research, but I digress.
    But why though.

    Why are you putting yourself in a position where you need constant catharsis?
    When you have the clearly better and healthier option of just walking away?

    Constantly letting your love lead you to a place where you need to vent is a love that's gone wrong.

    A public forum is a place for expression. And commiseration, over both good and bad stories, is important.
    But there is difference of degree between that and what's been happening for the last few months.

    A forum is also a public conversation.
    Bringing constant negativity and criticism coupled with being stubbornly inconsolable is quite frankly, a nuisance to read.
    It's emotionally exhausting and discourages positive expression. Instead, it just breeds acrimony.
    Meaning your catharsis is having a negative effect on others.

    A forum is not a group therapy session.
    At some point, these negative feelings should be dealt with in a more constructive way.
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  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I missed it, but was there a reason they portaled to Australia to get a ride from Gateway, when they name-dropped Paris (Exodus) earlier and his main power is teleportation? It's not like Ilyanna was their only teleporter... We know Pixie's on the island, for instance, and Nightcrawler can extend his range and teleport an entire team when powered up by Rachel (and, presumably, Jean or someone similar to Rachel in power). Vanisher might be there as well, or Ariel, from Fallen Angels, or Lila Cheney.

    It just seemed like a wasted step, and weird, since Exodus, in particular, has teleportation (and teleporting others without necessarily going to the destination point himself) as his primary power, the one he was named after, not just 'telepath number eleventy-bleem.'
    Because, for whatever reason, Hickman wanted to show that Gateway is alive and allied with the X-Men again.

  9. #459

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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    But why though.

    Why are you putting yourself in a position where you need constant catharsis?
    When you have the clearly better and healthier option of just walking away?

    Constantly letting your love lead you to a place where you need to vent is a love that's gone wrong.

    A public forum is a place for expression. And commiseration, over both good and bad stories, is important.
    But there is difference of degree between that and what's been happening for the last few months.

    A forum is also a public conversation.
    Bringing constant negativity and criticism coupled with being stubbornly inconsolable is quite frankly, a nuisance to read.
    It's emotionally exhausting and discourages positive expression. Instead, it just breeds acrimony.
    Meaning your catharsis is having a negative effect on others.

    A forum is not a group therapy session.
    At some point, these negative feelings should be dealt with in a more constructive way.
    Well, we could blame the autism and fixation that causes. But more than that; because I love these characters and I can't just walk away. I can't.

    And in any case, I was partaking in the conversation: I was agreeing with someone else and chipping in my two cents. It snowballed from another user's response. Is this truly any different from how these forums have ever operated? Does it really discourage positive expression? I thought it was just a forum, just the internet: it's how it works, isn't it.

    Besides, I had a look at these forums during other runs; the O5 for example. That didn't seem any friendlier or healthier; if anything it seemed angrier for less constructive reasons other than "They need to go." And that was repeated over and over. And it's not just me voicing these opinions at any rate.

  10. #460
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    I'm not expecting Claremont-formula character development. Hickman isn't Claremont. Also, Hickman's run is a soft reboot rather than a continuation of the preexisting canon so I don't expect anyone to be faithfully "in-character." I accept that this new era of X-Men is a reinvention, not an extension.

    What I would like, though, is for any dramatic changes (i.e. Scott and Jean going poly) to be played seriously and not tossed off as a nasty joke/middle finger for the lulz. For one, I think it makes for better stories. For another, trolling is juvenile bullshit, fandom politics really shouldn't have a role in driving stories, and such trolling and meta-commentary takes the franchise backward more than forward. It's yet another tedious argument about the past rather than a fresh push into the future.

    For the most part, Hickman's been doing new things and going in a new direction. I'd rather he keep doing that than waste time and page count trolling.
    Hickman doesn't write characters romantic relationships, Susan and Reed were devoid of any romantic plot. sam and Smasher was quuick and mostly off-panel.
    You are asking for something that Hickman can't deliver

    I don't consider this a soft reboot, just a writer ignoring things to make his run work. There wasn't changes to timelines and events that change the core of characters.
    That is a recipe for disaster, gonna drop the crap that was new52 as a example how to not handle long term existing characters.

    So I dont expect any truly exploration of poly that isn't a infantile *wink wink tease tease*. it's pretty obvious that Marvel won't let him do it

    This doesn't suit the characters and their relationships

    That's just myownlittleusername's passive-aggressive way of telling me to shut up. If he doesn't like my posts, he should just put me on his Ignore List. I've put him on mine.
    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post

    Besides, I had a look at these forums during other runs; the O5 for example. That didn't seem any friendlier or healthier; if anything it seemed angrier for less constructive reasons other than "They need to go." And that was repeated over and over. And it's not just me voicing these opinions at any rate.
    Majority wanted them gone and back to the past

  11. #461
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    But why though.

    You, and a few other like-minded individuals, post the same criticisms on these threads, week after week, in a manner that can be best described as stubbornly inconsolable.
    It's pretty clear that the group is not a fan of Hickman's writing or the current direction of the line.

    So what do you all get from reading something you don't like?
    What do you all get from repeatedly posting the same criticism? Do you hope that it will be noticed and incorporated it into the writing?
    Have you found that you've changed any one's mind or gathered new support?
    Is this a part of your grieving process?

    I ask because I find the behavior curious, and I worry the group is finding relief in attempting to stymie enthusiasm for the book.
    Which is a terrible coping mechanism and, overall, a dick move.

    Most people in that situation would say their peace, and move on for a while.
    I found myself in similar predicament with Spider-Man and OMD. It became very clear that the book I wanted was not the book I was going to get, so I left.
    Broke my heart, but I didn't buy a single issue for years.

    However, at no point did I try exorcise my feelings by posting constant criticism after every issue.
    ^^THIS^^

    If you don't like something, stop reading it and do something else. No one is forcing you to read it, and it is clear that nothing Hickman does is going to please certain posters. At this point, it's just screaming "Stop liking what I don't like" into the void.

  12. #462

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    ^^THIS^^

    If you don't like something, stop reading it and do something else. No one is forcing you to read it, and it is clear that nothing Hickman does is going to please certain posters. At this point, it's just screaming "Stop liking what I don't like" into the void.
    Or, it's just offering a criticism and elaborating on it when being asked (as I was.)

  13. #463
    BANNED PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Or, it's just offering a criticism and elaborating on it when being asked (as I was.)
    Yes you have. On every single book. On every single topic. Multiple times a day. We get it. You hate all of the new books. Repeating it over and over isn't going to make the books magically change for you.

  14. #464

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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Yes you have. On every single book. On every single topic. Multiple times a day. We get it. You hate all of the new books. Repeating it over and over isn't going to make the books magically change for you.
    I adore Fallen Angels, Excalibur, Marauders and now X-force. I've sung their praises repeatedly, in detail might I add, not that I need to justify myself.

  15. #465
    Libre. People Of The Earth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Yes you have. On every single book. On every single topic. Multiple times a day. We get it. You hate all of the new books. Repeating it over and over isn't going to make the books magically change for you.
    You obviously Don't if you hold that belief.
    To criticize = to hate is a ridiculous shortcut to make, especially here.
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


    "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

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