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  1. #31
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    I'd love an Elseworlds where the lasso's control feature was fully restored and it's ramifications were honestly examined. I think Wonder Woman is a hero that could use mind control in way that wasn't unsavory and worked effectively. Her compassion and moral compass are strong enough to not abuse the power. Even if she did she could make it beneficial to overall society.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I will admit Kilgrave is the more extreme reaction but there is a reason mind control is a power associated with villains more than heroes.
    There is Karma, who doesn't strike me as a particularly villainous character. Her power was abused by the Shadow King, but not Shan herself who used it responsibly (at least from what I've read).

    Most readers can discern the different situations. We shouldn't avoid the power just because it's typically used by villains. Just don't write it the way a villain would use it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's not like she can't use both. For all the talk of the lasso being replaced, it's still around still used.
    It can be both, but the lasso use is nebulous since its power set was changed. Whereas a sword and shield can only be used a certain way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    I'd love an Elseworlds where the lasso's control feature was fully restored and it's ramifications were honestly examined. I think Wonder Woman is a hero that could use mind control in way that wasn't unsavory and worked effectively. Her compassion and moral compass are strong enough to not abuse the power. Even if she did she could make it beneficial to overall society.
    Indeed. The lasso is a gift from fickle, morally ambiguous gods. It SHOULD be potentially dangerous and unsettling in the wrong hands. Diana would not use it incorrectly, but that doesn't mean someone else can't. For this reason, I'd prefer the "Diana alone can wield it" not be a thing anymore (if it hasn't fallen to the wayside already)

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    I feel that maybe the lasso could mold itself based on the person who wields it. That Diana is for the truth. So it opens up more other powers. But if it’s cheetah it would be different. The lasso would change what the truth is depending on the user.

  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    I think they want to make things "different" with Wonder Woman, but they may also not be a fan of the lasso and bracelets. Other reasons may be that they want to make Diana more powerful in the sense if attack rather than defense and also embrace the "warrior" aspect of being an Amazon.

    While I do not mind the sword and shield every one hundred issues or so, I am a big fan of the Lasso and Bracelets!

  5. #35

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    There are sub-textual implications to Wonder Woman having a phallic symbol made a recurring part of her image--note the increase of the sword's presence to her imagery happens to coincide with a decrease in Diana's compassion and empathy in her characterization.

    But I'd wager few writers and artists are putting that much thought into it. I figure it's mostly just a combination of juvenile "Wonder Woman with a sword is bad-ass" mentality, combined with a lazy "She's a 'warrior' and all 'warriors' are Conan" autopilot.

    I don't mind Diana busting out a sword when heavy stuff is going down, but I hate that it's been normalized into a standard part of her. As others have said, it makes her more typical and clashes with her intended purpose as a peace-maker.

    The sword itself is also just boring. There's no lore to it. No special attributes. Just some basic sword "forged by Hephaestus" that doesn't really do anything a normal sword can't. I mean the damn thing's been broken by Doomsday more than once.

    The shield though bothers me more than the sword. For Cthulhu's sake, HER BRACELETS ARE HER SHIELD!

    I do have to say, a little thing that I loved about the movie that I think doesn't get enough credit was, in the end, the sword was useless and what defeated Ares was Diana throwing his power back at him with her bracelets.

    I'm so glad we've yet to see Diana with a sword or a shield in the sequel...even with her new armor.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    With the shield it’s more of her heritage. From Marston to Perez we still see her with the shield and sword when things get heavy. I feel the best is if she can summon her weapons from her bracelets.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    From a fighting standpoint, the sword that Diana normally uses is one that goes with a shield, so to me it makes sense that Diana busts out the shield whenever she uses her sword. The same is true for the one-handed axe (though it usually has a far too big a blade and too short a shaft).

    I'm not sure I like the summoning sword and shield from the bracelets. If she can get those things from there, why not other, more generally useful things as well? It ends up like Batman's utility belt, but magical.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    From a fighting standpoint, the sword that Diana normally uses is one that goes with a shield, so to me it makes sense that Diana busts out the shield whenever she uses her sword. The same is true for the one-handed axe (though it usually has a far too big a blade and too short a shaft).

    I'm not sure I like the summoning sword and shield from the bracelets. If she can get those things from there, why not other, more generally useful things as well? It ends up like Batman's utility belt, but magical.
    I mean she can storage things in there. But it would be used for other things. Like she generally places the purple healing ray.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post

    I think plenty of us think that one of the points about superheroes should be about responsible use of their powers.
    So just write Diana as using the sword responsibly then.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    There are sub-textual implications to Wonder Woman having a phallic symbol made a recurring part of her image
    I think the people who view it this way might have their minds in the gutter a little bit.

    --note the increase of the sword's presence to her imagery happens to coincide with a decrease in Diana's compassion and empathy in her characterization.
    Again, the sword and shield are just a convenient scapegoat. Bruce Timm wrote Diana this way in the Justice League animated series and she wasn't using the sword there. the DCEU and Justice League Animated series had Diana with the sword and she wasn't portrayed as a bloodthirsty loon there.


    The sword itself is also just boring. There's no lore to it. No special attributes. Just some basic sword "forged by Hephaestus" that doesn't really do anything a normal sword can't. I mean the damn thing's been broken by Doomsday more than once.
    I can think of at least two instances were the lasso was broken.

    The shield though bothers me more than the sword. For Cthulhu's sake, HER BRACELETS ARE HER SHIELD!
    Any well trained fighter will tell you that it is foolish to put your faith in only one or two weapons.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    From a fighting standpoint, the sword that Diana normally uses is one that goes with a shield, so to me it makes sense that Diana busts out the shield whenever she uses her sword. The same is true for the one-handed axe (though it usually has a far too big a blade and too short a shaft).

    I'm not sure I like the summoning sword and shield from the bracelets. If she can get those things from there, why not other, more generally useful things as well? It ends up like Batman's utility belt, but magical.
    I greatly prefer the ax. It says "I've come to reek mayhem not fence or sword fight with you" and it's nowhere near as phallic.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    So just write Diana as using the sword responsibly then.
    Why introduce the sword in the first place?

    There are lots of heroes and villains who use physical violence as their tools, in fact the entire superhero genre is largely predicated on that.

    But how many superheroes have powers of mind control, compulsion, or the forcing of truth? That's far fewer, and many of them are positioned mainly as teachers (like Charles Xavier).
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Why introduce the sword in the first place?

    There are lots of heroes and villains who use physical violence as their tools, in fact the entire superhero genre is largely predicated on that.

    But how many superheroes have powers of mind control, compulsion, or the forcing of truth? That's far fewer, and many of them are positioned mainly as teachers (like Charles Xavier).
    Again, there is a reason why this power is more commonly associated with villains than with heroes. Even the guy you mentioned has been depicted as morally questionable at best many times. A sword isn't as sinister as mind control and has far less troubling implications. There's a reason Perez removed the mind control powers. Hell, Rucka had Diana go on a rant about how monstrous it was to violate a person's mind when discussing the League's mind wipes.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, there is a reason why this power is more commonly associated with villains than with heroes. Even the guy you mentioned has been depicted as morally questionable at best many times. A sword isn't as sinister as mind control and has far less troubling implications. There's a reason Perez removed the mind control powers. Hell, Rucka had Diana go on a rant about how monstrous it was to violate a person's mind when discussing the League's mind wipes.
    Why do you say the sword should just be written responsibly, when the same could be said for the mind control powers of the lasso? And of course a sword can be sinister, it's a stabbing weapon.

    Diana wouldn't use the lasso to mind wipe criminals, it doesn't even have that power. At most she would use it to stop a fight cold in its tracks. Like in the Phantom Zone mini, she defeated a Kryptonian with the lasso in a few panels. She used the mind control power to stop his violence and compel some answers out of him, but that's all. Veronica Cale's speech about how frightening the lasso was in that one shot issue of Rucka's first run would have held even more weight if the lasso had its original powers.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Why do you say the sword should just be written responsibly, when the same could be said for the mind control powers of the lasso? And of course a sword can be sinister, it's a stabbing weapon.

    Diana wouldn't use the lasso to mind wipe criminals, it doesn't even have that power. At most she would use it to stop a fight cold in its tracks. Like in the Phantom Zone mini, she defeated a Kryptonian with the lasso in a few panels. She used the mind control power to stop his violence and compel some answers out of him, but that's all. Veronica Cale's speech about how frightening the lasso was in that one shot issue of Rucka's first run would have held even more weight if the lasso had its original powers.

    I never said a sword can't be sinister, I said it isn't as sinister as mind control.

    Also, if someone as despicable as Cale can see the problems the lasso, that is something to take note of.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-11-2019 at 08:42 AM.

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