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  1. #16
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    lack of reconciliation was a big part of what was missing with his return. there was no emotional impact. no heart
    You could tell PAD had no emotional attachment to the character and was more interested in what he could make Ben into rather than celebrate what Ben has historically represented as a character.

    -Pav, who doesn't begrudge PAD his artistic choices...
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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    You could tell PAD had no emotional attachment to the character and was more interested in what he could make Ben into rather than celebrate what Ben has historically represented as a character.

    -Pav, who doesn't begrudge PAD his artistic choices...
    PAD and slott both

    i don’t begrudge him his choices either, but i’d guess that for a lot of ben fans part of what they were looking for was an addressing of the emotional loose ends from the 90s both in-universe and for their inner kid irl

    ben’s return had none of that, but it was a kinda interesting failed experiment
    Last edited by boots; 12-05-2019 at 04:22 PM.
    troo fan or death

  3. #18
    Radioactive! Spiderfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    lack of reconciliation was a big part of what was missing with his return. there was no emotional impact. no heart
    Yea I know if I had been dead for going on 20+ years and suddenly came back to the fold one of my biggest questions aside from "how the hell did I come back?" would be "what's happened since I was gone?" It really seems like for a while Marvel just wanted us all to forget about the Clone Saga and the events thereof (along with Peter's marriage to MJ), but then why would they bring back Ben (arguably the catalyst or central pillar of the Clone Saga) in such a big way? Some of the decisions made by Marvel's editorial just makes no sense at times.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    Yea I know if I had been dead for going on 20+ years and suddenly came back to the fold one of my biggest questions aside from "how the hell did I come back?" would be "what's happened since I was gone?" It really seems like for a while Marvel just wanted us all to forget about the Clone Saga and the events thereof (along with Peter's marriage to MJ), but then why would they bring back Ben (arguably the catalyst or central pillar of the Clone Saga) in such a big way? Some of the decisions made by Marvel's editorial just makes no sense at times.
    that was one of the more interesting aspects of the 90s saga- how ben reacted to peter’s life in the years he’d been gone, acting as a mirror for peter in some ways
    troo fan or death

  5. #20

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    I'm not sure Marvel's learned any lesson since there isn't a consistently successful approach to the character.

  6. #21
    Radioactive! Spiderfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I'm not sure Marvel's learned any lesson since there isn't a consistently successful approach to the character.
    I was largely meaning in context of the fans of Mr. Reilly, because a lot of us sincerely disliked how he has been represented and treated over the years since his initial demise.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    You could tell PAD had no emotional attachment to the character and was more interested in what he could make Ben into rather than celebrate what Ben has historically represented as a character.

    -Pav, who doesn't begrudge PAD his artistic choices...
    I normally enjoy PAD's work, but his Scarlet Spider run was a total misfire for me. It had some good moments, but you are right in that his heart wasn't in it. Which is what I felt while reading it.
    Last edited by Somecrazyaussie; 12-08-2019 at 02:18 AM.

  8. #23
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    I loved Ben as a kid, but I feel his story was pretty much done with the second clone saga. The writer's had positioned him to assume the Spider-man mantle when they were set on revealing him to be "the original." But once they had decided to do a 180 on that, he suddenly became redundant.

    I also feel they missed the opportunity to bring him back by not doing it a decade or so ago. By the time he came back, he was entering a landscape where we have Peter, Kaine, Gwen, Jessica Drew, Miles, Miguel and so forth. So how do you differentiate that?

    Ben really should have stayed dead. It certainly would have been better than what we got.

  9. #24
    Incredible Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Apparently not since Kaine's still around and we've gotten a new version of Ben Reilly.

  10. #25
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I'm obviously biased, but I hold strong to the belief that a Scarlet Spiders title, with the right creative team, could be the kind of ancillary title that can maintain a long run and maybe even one, like Venom, that never goes away for long.

    At this point, due to where their stories have led, I agree that a title co-starring Ben and Kaine makes the most sense. The complexities of their relationship being the heart of the book feels like a strong foundation, especially if we often get flashbacks to the Lost Years for comparison's sake.

    While Peter doesn't have to show up much, I think a book about Ben and Kaine does need to contain a heavy dose of philosophical pondering about the human condition, among other things. The Jackal and clones shouldn't be the only conflict, but it should never be far from the minds of Ben and Kaine as an ever-present danger. Similarly, characters and unresolved plotlines from throughout each character's history need to be incorporated, not purposefully neglected like in BR:SS.

    Oh, and personally? I think Kaine should be degenerating and Ben not.

    To me, that's a great foundation for a Scarlet Spiders book. Beyond that is writer discretion.

    -Pav, who hasn't forgotten Armada or Muse...
    I'm right there with you, while I'm not the most vocal about it I was and am a huge fan of Kaine and Ben. In fact, I love clones as a concept in general.

    The idea of having two additional Peter Parkers, each having identical memories up to a point and then wildly diverging, is an absolutely fascinating premise. But I felt both Ben Reilly and Kaine's Scarlet Spider series completely dropped the ball on the most interesting aspect of those characters. They both went out of their way to show their worth as characters separate from Peter Parker, why they aren't Peter Parker, when the real interesting is why they ARE Peter Parker and how he could have been.

    I think starting both series' away from New York was the wrong move. The starting point should have been their interacting with Peter, keeping in mind with both series Ben/Kaine had been away for a long time (comatose in jail or dead/"dead"), and having Peter help them acclimate to the new world, helping them set up their new lives. Have them be Spider-men together in New York, showing those differences and similarities by having them interact. Then move them away after they've been re-established with Peter in their own book. Use this time to introduce villains and begin a supporting cast. Use Peter almost as a narrator for the readers' introduction to these characters and why they are worth reading.

    Also, having Peter in the book would help sales and hopefully a quality book could retain some of the readers who only picked it up because of Peter.

    The starting point should have them mirror Peter and each other, but the end goal to establish them as individual characters.

    I do feel a new start needs to follow both Ben and Kaine and have two perspectives, rather than star one or the other. Start by acknowledging the past, preferably regretting their more questionable actions and the cycle of violence in their shared history, and each wanting redemption. Have them start from nothing, with them each blaming the other to a degree for their current statuses. Delve deeply into Ben and Kaine's past, their relationship and the pain they've inflicted on each other and had inflicted on them by the Jackal, and have that inform who they are now and how they react to Peter, each other and the world. Ultimately, have Ben and Kaine understand that they are evenly matched and by working together they can both bury the past and forge a future together.

    Move the characters forward, but keep a friendly rivalry going as a nod to their past and just for fun.

    We know alternate versions of Peter or Spider-man can sell, but the hard part is giving a reason for the clone's(s') existence(s).

    Immediately starting fresh with an all new setting, supporting cast, villains, etc, rarely works as readers will want something familiar. It's too much change all at once (the same mistake is often made when replacing a major hero due to death/injury, etc). They need to get to know and care about Kaine and Ben before they'll care about the setting, supporting cast, etc. It didn't help either Kaine or Ben that their individual series immediately changed their characters from anything we'd seen before.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  11. #26

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    Ben should have shown up in Absolute Carnage since he was Spider-Carnage at one point.

  12. #27
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    I'm right there with you, while I'm not the most vocal about it I was and am a huge fan of Kaine and Ben. In fact, I love clones as a concept in general.

    The idea of having two additional Peter Parkers, each having identical memories up to a point and then wildly diverging, is an absolutely fascinating premise. But I felt both Ben Reilly and Kaine's Scarlet Spider series completely dropped the ball on the most interesting aspect of those characters. They both went out of their way to show their worth as characters separate from Peter Parker, why they aren't Peter Parker, when the real interesting is why they ARE Peter Parker and how he could have been.

    I think starting both series' away from New York was the wrong move. The starting point should have been their interacting with Peter, keeping in mind with both series Ben/Kaine had been away for a long time (comatose in jail or dead/"dead"), and having Peter help them acclimate to the new world, helping them set up their new lives. Have them be Spider-men together in New York, showing those differences and similarities by having them interact. Then move them away after they've been re-established with Peter in their own book. Use this time to introduce villains and begin a supporting cast. Use Peter almost as a narrator for the readers' introduction to these characters and why they are worth reading.

    Also, having Peter in the book would help sales and hopefully a quality book could retain some of the readers who only picked it up because of Peter.

    The starting point should have them mirror Peter and each other, but the end goal to establish them as individual characters.

    I do feel a new start needs to follow both Ben and Kaine and have two perspectives, rather than star one or the other. Start by acknowledging the past, preferably regretting their more questionable actions and the cycle of violence in their shared history, and each wanting redemption. Have them start from nothing, with them each blaming the other to a degree for their current statuses. Delve deeply into Ben and Kaine's past, their relationship and the pain they've inflicted on each other and had inflicted on them by the Jackal, and have that inform who they are now and how they react to Peter, each other and the world. Ultimately, have Ben and Kaine understand that they are evenly matched and by working together they can both bury the past and forge a future together.

    Move the characters forward, but keep a friendly rivalry going as a nod to their past and just for fun.

    We know alternate versions of Peter or Spider-man can sell, but the hard part is giving a reason for the clone's(s') existence(s).

    Immediately starting fresh with an all new setting, supporting cast, villains, etc, rarely works as readers will want something familiar. It's too much change all at once (the same mistake is often made when replacing a major hero due to death/injury, etc). They need to get to know and care about Kaine and Ben before they'll care about the setting, supporting cast, etc. It didn't help either Kaine or Ben that their individual series immediately changed their characters from anything we'd seen before.
    This. All of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlet Spider-Man View Post
    Ben should have shown up in Absolute Carnage since he was Spider-Carnage at one point.
    That would've been nice, but Marvel might've taken a shot at killing him off (again), so perhaps a bullet was dodged by him not being in it.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    You could tell PAD had no emotional attachment to the character and was more interested in what he could make Ben into rather than celebrate what Ben has historically represented as a character.

    -Pav, who doesn't begrudge PAD his artistic choices...
    Well, seeing as "classic" Ben is just "diet Spidey," I think a case can be made that the character need to become something else to remain relevant. Not sure what, but there it is.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Well, seeing as "classic" Ben is just "diet Spidey," I think a case can be made that the character need to become something else to remain relevant. Not sure what, but there it is.
    Regardless of opinions on the existence of loony Ben, who PAD wrote well and is fun, the actual fatal flaw with the book was that it was a poorly-plotted, meandering mess about nothing in particular. Like Kaine, he needed some form of drastic reinvention to justify his existence in this decade's open Spider market. They had to swing the bat.
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  15. #30
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Regardless of opinions on the existence of loony Ben, who PAD wrote well and is fun, the actual fatal flaw with the book was that it was a poorly-plotted, meandering mess about nothing in particular. Like Kaine, he needed some form of drastic reinvention to justify his existence in this decade's open Spider market. They had to swing the bat.
    this ain't wrong

    buuut

    i'm experimenting with the idea that ben's appeal largely rests on nostalgia (even in the 90s he was nostaligia with a twist). so any attempt to reinvent him, even a really inspired one, might not land with fans. the best you can hope for is to capture an entirely new audience. which is hard af in the current climate.

    the more i think about it, the more i agree bringing him back was a mistake. a fake out and reveal that "clone conspiracy ben" was actually spidercide or whatnot (along the lines of "the return of barry allen" before...well..barry actually fckn returned) might have been enough to engage his old audience, tug at the heartstrings a bit and then marvel release either a continuation of his "lost years" series or an "untold tales of 90s spider-man" telling new stories of ben in the webs back in the day. could have been a mini or maxi series rather than long term to gauge interest.
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