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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I don't think Ben as a villain is inherently a dead end for Ben, nor do I think it was the root of the problem. I think the real issue was Ben no longer being effectively characterized as a second Peter.

    A Ben who isn't pretty much Peter isn't really Ben, y'know?

    A story about Ben/Peter losing his way down the path of villainy could hypothetically be done well. But Ben's story was rushed and weird and often unbelievable from moment to moment.

    The foundational idea of differentiating spinoff characters from the original doesn't apply to Ben, at least in personality.

    Ben is Peter. Ben is Peter. Ben is Peter.

    Except that he isn't

    -Pav, who is nobody's clone...
    Like I said, could've been salvaged with better writing and characterization, and your take on it sounds exactly like what was needed and should have happened. Hell, Peter David, who wrote Spider-Man: Edge of Time, the final/true villain of which was an older Peter Parker from 2099 driven out of his mind by a century's worth of guilt and grief and determined to "fix" everything that had gone wrong in the past, regardless of what it would cost, showed that he could have written at least a solid take on a Peter Parker fallen from grace and having lost his way, so from that vantage point, Ben Reilly: The Scarlet Spider was even more disappointing.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I don't think Ben as a villain is inherently a dead end for Ben, nor do I think it was the root of the problem. I think the real issue was Ben no longer being effectively characterized as a second Peter.

    A Ben who isn't pretty much Peter isn't really Ben, y'know?

    A story about Ben/Peter losing his way down the path of villainy could hypothetically be done well. But Ben's story was rushed and weird and often unbelievable from moment to moment.

    The foundational idea of differentiating spinoff characters from the original doesn't apply to Ben, at least in personality.

    Ben is Peter. Ben is Peter. Ben is Peter.

    Except that he isn't

    -Pav, who is nobody's clone...
    If that's true, then Ben has "no place" in the franchise. Considering that he was created to replace Peter Parker in the first place without really replacing him, maybe there was no getting around that once it became clear that there would never be a replacement Peter?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    If that's true, then Ben has "no place" in the franchise. Considering that he was created to replace Peter Parker in the first place without really replacing him, maybe there was no getting around that once it became clear that there would never be a replacement Peter?
    Ben may have been characterized as Peter. But he was never going to be seen as Peter by the public. Which is why he didn't work as a replacement because everyone and their grandmother knows Peter Parker is Spider-man. Same with Bruce Wayne/Batman and Clark Kent/Superman. He may have worn the costume, but underneath he was still Ben Reilly.

    In retrospect, Glenn Greenberg was right. The only way you could have made it work long-term is if you had Ben reclaiming his life as both Spider-man and Peter. The logistics of which would have been impossible given the marriage and the fact Mary Jane was pregnant. The only thing that Ben and Peter shared was a sense of humour and a certain morality/scientific mind. Other than that, both were entirely different due to the fact Ben extensively travelled during his 5 year exile.

    I find it ironic that you couldn't have more than one spider powered person in the 1990s and yet there are a wealth of them now. I still maintain that Ben should have been brought back well before now in order for him to have a purpose/place in the publishing line because now, with all these other spider characters running around, it is harder to justify bringing him back.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    I'm one of the few people who doesn't relate to there being "three" "Peters" (OG Pete, "Ben", "Kaine") with the exact same memories up until, uh, whenever his blood cells were first sampled by Miles Warren.
    unless it was retconned, kaine didn't have peter's memories. just vague feelings of attachment to the things peter cared about
    troo fan or death

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Ben may have been characterized as Peter. But he was never going to be seen as Peter by the public. Which is why he didn't work as a replacement because everyone and their grandmother knows Peter Parker is Spider-man. Same with Bruce Wayne/Batman and Clark Kent/Superman. He may have worn the costume, but underneath he was still Ben Reilly.

    In retrospect, Glenn Greenberg was right. The only way you could have made it work long-term is if you had Ben reclaiming his life as both Spider-man and Peter. The logistics of which would have been impossible given the marriage and the fact Mary Jane was pregnant. The only thing that Ben and Peter shared was a sense of humour and a certain morality/scientific mind. Other than that, both were entirely different due to the fact Ben extensively travelled during his 5 year exile.

    I find it ironic that you couldn't have more than one spider powered person in the 1990s and yet there are a wealth of them now. I still maintain that Ben should have been brought back well before now in order for him to have a purpose/place in the publishing line because now, with all these other spider characters running around, it is harder to justify bringing him back.
    i somewhat agree. the way for ben to work may have been to just hold fast the choice to make him peter parker at that point in time in the 90s no matter what. that required a single mindedness that they obviously didn't have or didn't want to have (understandably), but the execution was lacking even then. i still think it would have eventually been reversed but they could have had a kyle rayner type run on the title.

    and there could be a case made for ben (and kaine) breaking the seal on multiple spider characters existing in the marvel universe.
    troo fan or death

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i somewhat agree. the way for ben to work may have been to just hold fast the choice to make him peter parker at that point in time in the 90s no matter what. that required a single mindedness that they obviously didn't have or didn't want to have (understandably), but the execution was lacking even then. i still think it would have eventually been reversed but they could have had a kyle rayner type run on the title.

    and there could be a case made for ben (and kaine) breaking the seal on multiple spider characters existing in the marvel universe.
    Defalco claimed that they worked a backdoor into it from the beginning and his plan involved revealing that Seward had lied to them on purpose (which would have been anticlimactic). I much prefer the resolution we got in that it was Norman pulling the strings (the original intention was for it to be Harry now going by Gaunt).

    I've got mixed feelings on the clone saga. I think the first "act" was pretty damn good. It was only once they started dragging it out that it devolved into an absolute mess with constant twists, endless lies and fake-outs that ultimately ended up going nowhere.

    I'm not certain who's idea it was to bring Ben back (likely Slott), and if the direction for him in the following solo was editorially mandated as a lead into Spider-geddon, but PAD wasn't the guy to write it. I love the guys work, but he just didn't feel "invested" in him. No, I maintain that they should have got DeMatteis back to do it. He was the only writer who (according to everybody involved) understood Ben and was the one who championed for him in the first place.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Defalco claimed that they worked a backdoor into it from the beginning and his plan involved revealing that Seward had lied to them on purpose (which would have been anticlimactic). I much prefer the resolution we got in that it was Norman pulling the strings (the original intention was for it to be Harry now going by Gaunt).

    I've got mixed feelings on the clone saga. I think the first "act" was pretty damn good. It was only once they started dragging it out that it devolved into an absolute mess with constant twists, endless lies and fake-outs that ultimately ended up going nowhere.

    I'm not certain who's idea it was to bring Ben back (likely Slott), and if the direction for him in the following solo was editorially mandated as a lead into Spider-geddon, but PAD wasn't the guy to write it. I love the guys work, but he just didn't feel "invested" in him. No, I maintain that they should have got DeMatteis back to do it. He was the only writer who (according to everybody involved) understood Ben and was the one who championed for him in the first place.
    From what I recall (though I might be wrong), Slott wanted to use Spider-Island to bring Ben back, but he got vetoed, so he ended up using Kaine instead, which worked out rather well in light of Christopher Yost's handling of his character afterwards. It somewhat helped as well that J.M. DeMatteis came back to write the backup stories for Grim Hunt that set up Kaine's relationship with Kraven and his eventual heroic sacrifice in that arc. Yeah, I would gladly have him come back to work on Ben (and Kaine) as well and hopefully put the Scarlet Spider(s) back on solid footing.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    From what I recall (though I might be wrong), Slott wanted to use Spider-Island to bring Ben back, but he got vetoed, so he ended up using Kaine instead, which worked out rather well in light of Christopher Yost's handling of his character afterwards. It somewhat helped as well that J.M. DeMatteis came back to write the backup stories for Grim Hunt that set up Kaine's relationship with Kraven and his eventual heroic sacrifice in that arc. Yeah, I would gladly have him come back to work on Ben (and Kaine) as well and hopefully put the Scarlet Spider(s) back on solid footing.
    wasnít someone else pitching a ben return that didnít eventuate?
    troo fan or death

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    wasn’t someone else pitching a ben return that didn’t eventuate?
    That might've been it, yeah.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    wasn’t someone else pitching a ben return that didn’t eventuate?
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    That might've been it, yeah.
    I believe that was the rumor at the time. Weren't there whispers of a possible storyline in which Ben had been held captive by Norman Osborn? I feel like we may have gotten some hints to that.

    Regardless, it's a shame that Ben wasn't allowed to come back during Spider-Island -- his return would've been more nonchalant, with no personality changes or mental issues to make the character feel off to readers. Meanwhile, it also would've prevented Kaine's character from becoming a "mean Ben Reilly" rather than keeping him more aligned with his original characterization.

    Obviously what's done is done, and while it's kind of charming that Ben and Kaine have become more alike, I still think it might've been better to keep them somewhat differentiated.

    So far anyway, Marvel obviously hasn't learned their lesson because I'm not writing a Scarlet Spiders title.

    -Pav, who only has years of stories in his head...
    Last edited by Pav; 01-26-2020 at 11:53 AM.
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  11. #56
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    It isn't the end for Ben, while I don't think the Clone Conspiracy did any favors for us Ben fans it was a mixed-blessing which gave us a new Scarlet Spider series and more Ben & Kaine time (which is always good), despite its flaws it was still a fun ride. I think Marvel will do more with Ben in the future, when they've found the right writer with the right creative angle to pitch. He may be on the backburner for a while, which in my opinion is better than having him killed off for the umpteenth time, which I believe editorial very well could have mandated during Spidergeddon, but instead went out of their way to have him made "whole" again. Like why do that if the character is only expendable or a "dead-end"? That's why I strongly believe Marvel wants to do something good with Ben Reilly, they just haven't found the right person to translate that into words on paper.
    Last edited by Spiderfang; 01-26-2020 at 11:50 AM.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I believe that was the rumor at the time. Weren't there whispers of a possible storyline in which Ben had been held captive by Norman Osborn? I feel like we may have gotten some hints to that.

    Regardless, it's a shame that Ben wasn't allowed to come back during Spider-Island -- his return would've been more nonchalant, with no personality changes or mental issues to make the character feel off to readers. Meanwhile, it also would've prevented Kaine's character from becoming a "mean Ben Reilly" rather than keeping him more aligned with his original characterization.

    Obviously what's done is done, and while it's kind of charming that Ben and Kaine have become more alike, I still think it might've been better to keep them somewhat differentiated.

    So far anyway, Marvel obviously hasn't learned their lesson because I'm not writing a Scarlet Spiders title.

    -Pav, who only has years of stories in his head...
    Yeah, that was an idea I had, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    It isn't the end for Ben, while I don't think the Clone Conspiracy did any favors for us Ben fans it was a mixed-blessing which gave us a new Scarlet Spider series and more Ben & Kaine time (which is always good), despite its flaws it was still a fun ride. I think Marvel will do more with Ben in the future, when they've found the right writer with the right creative angle to pitch. He may be on the backburner for a while, which in my opinion is better than having him killed off for the umpteenth time, which I believe editorial very well could have mandated during Spidergeddon, but instead went out of their way to have him made "whole" again. Like why do that if the character is only expendable or a "dead-end"? That's why I strongly believe Marvel wants to do something good with Ben Reilly, they just haven't found the right person to translate that into words on paper.
    That makes sense.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #58
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    I wonder what Slotts plans would have been different for Ben for Spider-Island? Kaine was revived and turned into a Spider almost immediately and the anti-venom more or less revived him. What/how would have Ben been revived?

    Me, I am a Big Ben fan, but I enjoyed the Clone Conspiracy and the way he was revived. Yes, it damaged the character, but he needed his way to be separate from Peter, as Peter pretty much became Ben, in the jokes and manners that Peter had lost prior to the 90’s clone saga.

    Also, side-note, Spider-Island would have been the perfect way to have introduced a 616 version of Miles. Or at least say that’s how Miles got his powers.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blanks View Post
    I wonder what Slotts plans would have been different for Ben for Spider-Island? Kaine was revived and turned into a Spider almost immediately and the anti-venom more or less revived him. What/how would have Ben been revived?

    Me, I am a Big Ben fan, but I enjoyed the Clone Conspiracy and the way he was revived. Yes, it damaged the character, but he needed his way to be separate from Peter, as Peter pretty much became Ben, in the jokes and manners that Peter had lost prior to the 90’s clone saga.

    Also, side-note, Spider-Island would have been the perfect way to have introduced a 616 version of Miles. Or at least say that’s how Miles got his powers.
    Miles Morales? Yeah, that could have definitely worked. I'll also admit Clone Conspiracy had potential, at least in terms of a Ben who, armed with Peter's foundational memories, emotions, and drives, would approach the "great power, great responsibility" ethos passed on by Uncle Ben in a more extreme and morally dubious fashion than Peter himself would, but that all got wasted the moment Ben lost his s*** over Peter invoking Uncle Ben in refusing to join him and Otto turning against him and attempted to kill and "reanimate" the whole human race. In that sense, Clone Conspiracy disappointed me greatly.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I believe that was the rumor at the time. Weren't there whispers of a possible storyline in which Ben had been held captive by Norman Osborn? I feel like we may have gotten some hints to that.
    i think the whispers were more a fan theory based on mistaken identity of someone inside a green goblin pod.

    i was more referring to this:

    "Slott revealed that there's a reason Ben hasn't returned before now. It turns out that he wasn't the first writer to tackle the subject. Another creative team had dibs on resurrecting Ben Reilly for several years, but eventually that story fell by the wayside. In fact, Christopher Yost and Ryan Stegman's Scarlet Spider comic came about as an offshoot of that aborted storyline."

    https://au.ign.com/articles/2016/12/...racy-3-shocker


    Regardless, it's a shame that Ben wasn't allowed to come back during Spider-Island -- his return would've been more nonchalant, with no personality changes or mental issues to make the character feel off to readers. Meanwhile, it also would've prevented Kaine's character from becoming a "mean Ben Reilly" rather than keeping him more aligned with his original characterization.
    i would have preferred that too, though i don't begrudge fans of nu-kaine their character development.

    i still think that bringing back ben required some really out of the box thinking but what we got was a kinda standard back from the dead heel turn.
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