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  1. #31
    Death of Time Cronus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Strange's shields don't cover a huge area typically. Plus Wally has manipulated speed at 10 feet distances and so on. He doesn't have to touch him.

    They might still just block the effect though?
    Has he? Geez I gotta go through and revise some of my old scans...I thought he had to be like within arms reach, but I'm probably misremembering...
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  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member The Drunkard Kid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cronus View Post
    Too funny. I was telling my brother about this very discussion and he suggested exactly what you're suggesting. Only question I have is isnt Strange a little less effective magically in astral form?
    Yyyyyes, but he's still done stuff like causing a sentient sun to become destabalized in a matter of seconds while in his astral form, then protected his still comatose body from the resulting supernova with the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak (admittedly, this would only involve protecting himself from a person-sized chunk of the exploding sun rather than tanking the entire nova, but still). I think he may have still been in his astral form when he subsequently corked the black hole that the supernova somehow immediately collapsed into.
    Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 12-08-2019 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #33
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    I guess Wally could given the opportunity accelerate to the point that time freezes for him and then dump the good doc in speed force tough whether it could imprison a esoteric like strange is doubtful. Alternatively is it possible that strange could just cut off his link to the speed force?

  4. #34
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    I guess Wally could given the opportunity accelerate to the point that time freezes for him and then dump the good doc in speed force tough whether it could imprison a esoteric like strange is doubtful. Alternatively is it possible that strange could just cut off his link to the speed force?
    Dumping him in the speedforce wouldn't do anything: Strange can come back from being dumped in time, space, dimensions, hell, the world of nasty papercuts, whatever.
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  5. #35
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Pretty much the above. Strange, in astral form, is ‘weaker’. By ‘weaker’, we mean ‘still makes a sun go supernova, then protects his body against the explosion with the crimson bands.’
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Dumping him in the speedforce wouldn't do anything: Strange can come back from being dumped in time, space, dimensions, hell, the world of nasty papercuts, whatever.
    But can he escape from the nasty rumbles limbo? Speaking seriously yep a dimension dump does not seem to be a viable option but then Wally's options do seem limited here.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Pretty much the above. Strange, in astral form, is ‘weaker’. By ‘weaker’, we mean ‘still makes a sun go supernova, then protects his body against the explosion with the crimson bands.’
    It does seem like a mismatch when you take into consideration Wally was afraid of and was vulnerable to Abra Kadabras manipulations and had a difficult time containing him most of the times. Strange is way above Kadabra.

  8. #38
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmark View Post
    It does seem like a mismatch when you take into consideration Wally was afraid of and was vulnerable to Abra Kadabras manipulations and had a difficult time containing him most of the times. Strange is way above Kadabra.
    Yeah, but that's a lot of PIS too: Wally would get tricked by Mirror Master despite the later not really being all that massively FTL. Wally would need McGuffins or special circumstances to stop Cold.

    Most of Wally's solo foes really don't belong on the same page with the guy.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
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  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    Depends. I view autoshields as generally pretty effective against anything deemed outright /harmful/ to the user.
    Ok but then by that logic Wallys speed steal would not even work on a GL whose ring does stuff on its own like prioritize essential life support when running low on juice.

    To put it another way, Hulk's thick skin/ physical stats is his "auto shield". It even deals with "esoterics" like that one time he was being turned to stone but resisted because of his healing factor . Do we say wally can't speed drain the hulk then? Or more comparably, do GL shields stop a speed steal? Do Luthor's force fields? Dr Doom's? Iron Man?

    What I'm saying is, Strange should have at least somewhat similar stuff like resisting time stops on their own or say high end crap like reality warping, rather than hand waving speed steal resistance because he stopped an unrelated thing (gravity) one time

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Also Wally could phase through or punch down the shield? And if we're talking current Wally, that guy's gonna blow through everything and punch out Strange anyway

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    Last edited by The Dork Knight; 12-09-2019 at 12:49 AM.

  11. #41
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Ok but then by that logic Wallys speed steal would not even work on a GL whose ring does stuff on its own like prioritize essential life support when running low on juice.

    To put it another way, Hulk's thick skin/ physical stats is his "auto shield". It even deals with "esoterics" like that one time he was being turned to stone but resisted because of his healing factor . Do we say wally can't speed drain the hulk then? Or more comparably, do GL shields stop a speed steal? Do Luthor's force fields? Dr Doom's? Iron Man?

    What I'm saying is, Strange should have at least somewhat similar stuff like resisting time stops on their own or say high end crap like reality warping, rather than hand waving speed steal resistance because he stopped an unrelated thing (gravity) one time
    Strange has MUCH better feats for dealing with much more wild esoterics with his autoshields then GLs or Hulk. I think what Ocean Meat was going for was saying that autoshields wouldn't be weaker than any other sort of defense - they will work against anything they can work against. Strange's autoshields have proven effective against a wide range of esoteric and direct effects, including transmutation, soul rips, intangibility, mind control, reality warping, hallucinatory or psychodelic effects, etc. by people well above Wally West's paygrade. Wally, therefore, would need to have feats for working a speedsteal against/through such a defense.

    Plus, Strange is very capable of upping that game significantly with a gesture, or, even better, using his half second to fill the arena with Crimson Bands, things that will absolutely trap Wally dead in his tracks (feats for working on intangibles, astral beings, and just generally on beings again, well out of Wally's paygrade).
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  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member The Dork Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Strange has MUCH better feats for dealing with much more wild esoterics with his autoshields then GLs or Hulk. I think what Ocean Meat was going for was saying that autoshields wouldn't be weaker than any other sort of defense - they will work against anything they can work against. Strange's autoshields have proven effective against a wide range of esoteric and direct effects, including transmutation, soul rips, intangibility, mind control, reality warping, hallucinatory or psychodelic effects, etc. by people well above Wally West's paygrade. Wally, therefore, would need to have feats for working a speedsteal against/through such a defense.
    Ok so ...some specific examples of this impressive stuff then? Stuff that Strange is not doing consciously, mind, we already know he's impressive like that.

    For example Wally West uses speed steal on Amazo on a day hes trashing the entire league, using multiple powers including Zatanna's magic (to do a blanket block of all her spells directly cast on him), growing back his head, recovering from a hole in his guts, turning intangible etc.

    Plus, Strange is very capable of upping that game significantly with a gesture, or, even better, using his half second to fill the arena with Crimson Bands, things that will absolutely trap Wally dead in his tracks (feats for working on intangibles, astral beings, and just generally on beings again, well out of Wally's paygrade).
    Wally has outrun his own shadow, considering even Strange in his astral form could evade Dormammus crimson bands for a while , the crimson bands are hardly auto win

    Also current Wally is shaking other dimensions and worlds and splitting open the skies COIE style as a side effect of his speed (casually busting planetary level Hals shields for instance ) , hes faster than Zoom now.

    If its current wally hes just going to bust through stranges shields

  13. #43
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Wally has outrun his own shadow, considering even Strange in his astral form could evade Dormammus crimson bands for a while , the crimson bands are hardly auto win

    Also current Wally is shaking other dimensions and worlds and splitting open the skies COIE style as a side effect of his speed (casually busting planetary level Hals shields for instance ) , hes faster than Zoom now.

    If its current wally hes just going to bust through stranges shields
    Strange evaded them over all of New York, when Dormammu didn't know where he was. And not for long.

    And it sounds like current Wally has been hitting the speedforce steroids again. And I don't think that's enough to blow through Strange's shields once he amps him with a gesture, which he'll do in his half-second of action. Mileage may vary, said a wise man.
    "But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;"
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    "Get off my lawn!

    ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops."

    - Sharpandpointies

    "...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics."
    -Captain Morgan

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Captain Morgan's Avatar
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    Might be worth noting that current Hal is making full blown stars over in the Green Lantern. Well, leading two other GLs in doing it, but even contributing a third of that power for 2 hours is really absurd. Shattering a barrier he has built up specifically, with more than a half second to do so, is significant.

  15. #45
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dork Knight View Post
    Ok so ...some specific examples of this impressive stuff then? Stuff that Strange is not doing consciously, mind, we already know he's impressive like that.
    Oh, gawd. I'm going to need to go back through a gazillion Dr. Strange comics...actually, nevermind. He has a half-second prep here, which is enough for him to gang-sign 'Shields set to *no weirdness*', so that takes care of that issue.

    For example Wally West uses speed steal on Amazo on a day hes trashing the entire league, using multiple powers including Zatanna's magic (to do a blanket block of all her spells directly cast on him), growing back his head, recovering from a hole in his guts, turning intangible etc.
    This doesn't sound like Amazo has some 'anti-esoterics' shielding up.

    Wally has outrun his own shadow, considering even Strange in his astral form could evade Dormammus crimson bands for a while , the crimson bands are hardly auto win
    The Crimson Bands filling the entire arena would be, because at that point there is literally nowhere to go. But it's just an example of the kind of crap Classic Strange could do if he had time to set stuff up; there's plenty of other magical, area affecting weirdness he might carry through with.

    The big issue here is 'Can Strange last long enough to start with the mojo?'

    Side note: Astral forms move faster than light (I know, faster than light is slow compared to Wally). Strange evading the Crimson Bands failed. I'm not saying Wally couldn't outrun them, due to him being far, far faster than 'FTL', mind. I'm just noting that they're pretty decent with regards to speed.

    Also current Wally is shaking other dimensions and worlds and splitting open the skies COIE style as a side effect of his speed (casually busting planetary level Hals shields for instance ) , hes faster than Zoom now.

    If its current wally hes just going to bust through stranges shields
    Okay, if Wally is currently shaking entire dimensions and worlds just by running around, almost breaking Hal's ring, and punching all hell out of Nu52 Superman, I can totally buy him having a decent chance of busting through shields that Strange has only had a half-second to reinforce.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "...the Myths Transformed version of the legendarium, in which the Moon is Melkor's attempt to make his own Arda with blackjack and hookers."
    - Estrecca

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik Hasta

    "[Kent] Nelson was nearly invariably presented as the guy who, barring the Spectre, made everyone else generally gasp and go "Doctor Fate don't shiv, he balls nasty.", even Superman."
    - Pendaran

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