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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    I'm gonna say Jobbertooth as well. Because Wolverine does not see him as an "arch foe", some much as a repeated annoyance. And that's exactly how he's written. Logan doesn't fear or worry about him. Any so-called "rivalry" they have is just one-sided hating on on Jobber's part. And one-sided beat downs on Logan's part.

    Hell, i'll go so far as to say Jobbertooth doesn't even deserve his alias anymore. Give the name "Sabretooth" to someone who's actually strong.
    Sabretooth is poised for a big role in HOX/POX and currently he seems intent on hating all of Krakoa, rather than just Logan.

    When it's so one-sided, arch nemesis doesn't seem to fit, so much as "pest."
    Claremont really did want Sabretooth to be Wolverine's Arch-Enemy and he saw Sabretooth as Wolverine's superior and maybe Logan's true Dad or whatnot. The thing is that never entirely went into the comics because Wolverine broke out and became a big star, and Sabretooth, editors agreed just didn't seem to make sense as an arch-enemy for a character that was becoming so big. He was a one-dimensional thug when originally written and aside from being really really strong (which again so is the Hulk, Wendigo and others Logan tussled with) offer anything.

    Wolverine in general works without having an arch-enemy. As the tagline of Logan goes, "Nature made me a freak, Man made me a weapon, God made it last all too long". At different moments many different characters have gotten in his face far more than Sabertooth ever did. Magneto ripped his skeleton out, Apocalypse made him a Horseman, and in DOFP a Sentinel fries him, and the one time he hit on Spider-Man's wife, Peter Parker hurled him out of the top floor of Stark Tower.

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Sabretooth is poised for a big role in HOX/POX and currently he seems intent on hating all of Krakoa, rather than just Logan.
    Jobbertooth's role in HOX/POX was to be the jobber he's been for 20 years & get used as a scapegoat to hype Krakoa law. So every villain in the X-books is sitting pretty, with the likes of Shaw, Sinister, and Apocalypse on the head council. Meanwhile Jobbertooth is the ONLY one who gets put in solitary confinement after facing a Kangaroom Court.Not very impressive, imo.

    HOX was when I accepted Jobbertooth will always be such & throwaway character. Literally in Hiockman's case on that latter part.

    Sad, but Sabretooth marks the first time I outright gave up on a favorite character due to shame & patheticness. Ah well. R.I.P. Sabretooth / Creed. All that remains is Jobbertooth / Crud.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 12-07-2019 at 07:57 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Wolverine in general works without having an arch-enemy. As the tagline of Logan goes, "Nature made me a freak, Man made me a weapon, God made it last all too long". At different moments many different characters have gotten in his face far more than Sabertooth ever did. Magneto ripped his skeleton out, Apocalypse made him a Horseman, and in DOFP a Sentinel fries him, and the one time he hit on Spider-Man's wife, Peter Parker hurled him out of the top floor of Stark Tower.
    I disagree, Wolverine needs arch enemies like any other character, and Creed works good in that regard. He's what Logan would if he gave into his animal side.

    The problem is that writers don't play that up, and keep trying new ways to make Creed a crimeboss.

  4. #34
    Condescending Member manymade1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tbaron View Post
    Venom is by far not Spiderman's Arch enemy any more. I mean the two have worked together several times. With the whole Superior Spiderman thing I wouldnt put Doc Ock as a Spiderman Arch enemy but that will most likely change now that old Doc Ock is back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    The first "villain" that came to mind. Yes, he started out as Spider-Man's evil mirror image, but over the decades that has certainly changed into something different. After all of the team-up's and fighting against symbiotes, these two have changed a lot. Rereading Absolute Carnage, I feel that Spider-Man and Venom can no longer be called bitter enemies, but rather unlikely allies. Hell, they're approaching a brotherly type of relationship.
    As much as people try to make it sound like Venom was Spider-Man's nemesis of the 90's, I feel like he barely lasted in the role. Given the character's popularity, I always thought Marvel was a bit too quick to push him into anti-hero status.

  5. #35
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    I'm gonna say Jobbertooth as well. Because Wolverine does not see him as an "arch foe", some much as a repeated annoyance. And that's exactly how he's written. Logan doesn't fear or worry about him. Any so-called "rivalry" they have is just one-sided hating on on Jobber's part. And one-sided beat downs on Logan's part.

    Hell, i'll go so far as to say Jobbertooth doesn't even deserve his alias anymore. Give the name "Sabretooth" to someone who's actually strong.

    When it's so one-sided, arch nemesis doesn't seem to fit, so much as "pest."
    That's never been my experience with it.

    From my reading, nothing is more visceral then how much Logan hates Creed, and if he tries to downplay Sabertooth's threat is as much posturing as when Creed calls Logan "runt."

    Sabertooth is everything Wolverine rejects about himself, which is part of why he hates him so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Claremont really did want Sabretooth to be Wolverine's Arch-Enemy and he saw Sabretooth as Wolverine's superior and maybe Logan's true Dad or whatnot. The thing is that never entirely went into the comics because Wolverine broke out and became a big star, and Sabretooth, editors agreed just didn't seem to make sense as an arch-enemy for a character that was becoming so big. He was a one-dimensional thug when originally written and aside from being really really strong (which again so is the Hulk, Wendigo and others Logan tussled with) offer anything.
    I think Sabertooth is pretty commonly regarded as Wolverines Archnemesis, especially with all the focus adaptions put on their rivalry.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by LifeIsILL View Post
    Juggernaut and X-Men
    He would be more popular if he had started out as, say, a Thor villain.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's never been my experience with it.

    From my reading, nothing is more visceral then how much Logan hates Creed, and if he tries to downplay Sabertooth's threat is as much posturing as when Creed calls Logan "runt."

    Sabertooth is everything Wolverine rejects about himself, which is part of why he hates him so much.

    I think Sabertooth is pretty commonly regarded as Wolverines Archnemesis, especially with all the focus adaptions put on their rivalry.
    The problem is Romulus. His introduction neutered Vic.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    The problem is Romulus. His introduction neutered Vic.
    He was neutered before that when Wolverine started beating him effortlessly. Lol. Such as Chuck Austen's run where they fought twice & Logan dismembered him both times, even using him as mulch the 2nd time.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    He was neutered before that when Wolverine started beating him effortlessly. Lol. Such as Chuck Austen's run where they fought twice & Logan dismembered him both times, even using him as mulch the 2nd time.
    I'm just saying that Vic could have really benefited from the characterization given to Romulus instead of being put on the same level as Wildchild. And don't get me started on Dog Logan.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    I'm just saying that Vic could have really benefited from the characterization given to Romulus instead of being put on the same level as Wildchild. And don't get me started on Dog Logan.
    Jobbertooth Could've benefited from the characterization wasted on Daken at times. But he's too low on the pecking order for it. So every other character, even rip-offs of him do better. Lol At least a little.

    Dog Logan is a mess. I try to ignore almost everything written about Logan & Creed post-2002. Lol

  11. #41
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    Ross hasnít fought hulk in a while and now he is dead the leader returns in the immortal hulk series.
    Last edited by Toxin45; 12-08-2019 at 08:47 PM.

  12. #42
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Marvel have been doing the new money crime boss/corporate titan thing with Mandarin for years now. Mandarin took the name Zhang Tong and become a Hong Kong financial leader with political ties. He was also CEO of Prometheus which allowed him to infiltrates the U.S. government via government technology contracts. He was also secretly financing and arming terrorists.

    The whole Mandarin being Fu Manchu knock off or Asian Doctor Doom villain isn't how he has been portrayed in the comics for a while.

    I think Mandarin could actually still work as a Iron Man foe because he can tap into the fear and paranoia about China's growing sphere of influence and challenge to America's dominance as a superpower.

    There has been plenty of discussion in recent years in the west about pandering to China, censorship, Chinese expansion in Africa, China's ambitions in the South China sea, the Chinese regime's handling of Taiwan/Hong Kong/Tibet, currency manipulation, trade, espionage (Huawei) and technological copy-write/intellectual rights.


    China has evolved and the fears some in the West have about China have evolved. Mandarin is one of the best placed characters to use to address and create stories around the West's current relationship with China.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    I think Mandarin could actually still work as a Iron Man foe because he can tap into the fear and paranoia about China's growing sphere of influence and challenge to America's dominance as a superpower.

    There has been plenty of discussion in recent years in the west about pandering to China, censorship, Chinese expansion in Africa, China's ambitions in the South China sea, the Chinese regime's handling of Taiwan/Hong Kong/Tibet, currency manipulation, trade, espionage (Huawei) and technological copy-write/intellectual rights.
    1) China has compromised Disney/Marvel itself. It's a huge market for Disney owing to Disneyland, for Marvel Movies, for merchandise, and in translation even the comics itself. So that means Disney/Marvel will never publish anything critical of China's policies owing to the CCP's total control of its market and weaponizing access (as in the case of the NBA incident that happened a while back). So you are not going to see any "Free Tibet" stuff in the pages of Marvel, and for that matter DC too since China is a big market for their hooch as well.

    2) Even if you could, using Mandarin to make that criticism is supremely dodgy and dangerous. Mandarin has its roots in Yellow Peril and the original character is fairly racist, and using that to make criticisms about China's policies will come off as imperialist. You have to be careful criticizing China in the West to stay on a certain line and not cross-over into Yellow Peril "Japan/China are taking over" BS and doing it with IRON MAN (who basically represents Western Capitalism and Imperialism whether he likes it or not) is just not going to work.

  14. #44

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    eh. it's not like it would be punching down. China owns most our debt. it's dangerous from a financial standpoint. but i'm not seeing the dodginess. does Tony represent western capitalism? because i seem to remember Obadiah Stane going after him because of the opposite. Tony was bucking the system. he later started pursuing renewable energy and creating an artificial intelligence to police the world. that's not very capitalist. if Mandarin is problematic, shouldn't Magneto also be? he made FOX a lot of money being overtly jewish and a villain.
    Last edited by Michael Watkins; 12-09-2019 at 07:55 AM.
    "I just don't get why you wouldn't want to break the law anymore" --Scorpia

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    eh. it's not like it would be punching down. China owns most our debt. it's dangerous from a financial standpoint. but i'm not seeing the dodginess. does Tony represent western capitalism? because i seem to remember Obadiah Stane going after him because of the opposite. Tony was bucking the system. he later started pursuing renewable energy and creating an artificial intelligence to police the world. that's not very capitalist. if Mandarin is problematic, shouldn't Magneto also be? he made FOX a lot of money being overtly jewish and a villain.
    Israel isn't a dictatorship with such a thin skin it bans Winnie the Pooh. Neither is Japan, which is why you still see ninja villains from time to time. China, on the other hand, is both incredibly aggressive and incredibly thin-skinned. In other words, China can't be portrayed as an evil dictatorship, because China is an evil dictatorship.

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