Arch-Enemies That No Longer Fit the Role

[Michael Watkins]

You are aware that Penguin isn't Batman's arch-enemy right? He's an entertaining gangster.

The actual Arch-Enemy needs to be of some stature, and have some kind of values as a contrast to the hero.

there are elements of Penguin's backstory that apply to the Mandarin. but he's also an indivdual who has worked himself to Ras' stature.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think Thanos has long since evolved past being the arch enemy to Drax and Adam Strange.

That's Adam Warlock. Adam Strange is the dude from DC.

Thanos has been an all-purpose cosmic villain for a long time. He tackled Silver Surfer, Thor, Captain Marvel, and others. And Infinity Gauntlet elevated him into a Marvel-wide villain.

The thing is I think Thanos has reached a plateau of some kind. After Endgame, I think he'll go back to a corner and so on, while the villains Marvel are prepping for future MCU appearances will get attention and heat.

[Frontier]

I think Thanos has long since evolved past being the arch enemy to Drax and Adam Warlock.

He's definitely not Captain Marvel's Archenemy anymore.

[Agent Z]

The thing about any criticism of China, or any attempt to humanize Mandarin is that we as a reader are never given reasons as to why people would find China's current government appealing or why anyone would willingly follow Mandarin.

The fact is that a lot of people in China aren't brainwashed, they willingly support their government and it's been good to a decent number of them. But when people think of criticizing China, it's presented as "other" and lesser.

In the case of Doctor Doom or Magneto, there have been many issues devoted to why people in-universe like these characters, why a lot of Latverians love their ruler and it's not a case that all Latverians are brainwashed and so on. People are willing to humanize Doctor Doom and Magneto and other European dictators (even if both of them come from persecuted minorities) in a way that rulers from "the East" aren't. No, Mandarin is an "Oriental despot", the Chinese government is "evil" and inscrutable and cunning and not driven by rational policies and political interests. A good example of an exception is Captain Nemo, who is Prince Dakkar of Bundelkhand, an Indian leader turned terrorist. Jules Verne's books humanize him greatly, you totally understand why people are loyal to this guy, why some people admire him and follow him out of true belief.

In the case of Iron Man stories in general, virtually no villain of his rogues gallery is ever given real credit. People want Stark's tech or want to sabotage him because they are jerks, thieves, greedy people, despots and so on. Which is why his stories have a fundamental right-wing dimension. Even Batman doesn't have that because Batman rogues are acknowledged to have some values. Joker's a brilliant chemist and on the occassion a great showman and charismatic guy, even if he's a murderous sociopath. Ra's Al Ghul when written well is the case of the Mandarin done right, he's an Arab guy who was a total hero when he was young and who suffered tragedy and who over time, living too long and fighting too much, has become as bad and worse than the people he fought. And Ra's has noble qualities which the Mandarin isn't shown to have.

The Joker being occasionally funny or a brilliant chemist is not a great value. Or at least not great enough to detract from him being a murderer who kills more people than traffic accidents. And Ra's al Ghul is pretty much the same "scary foreigner" stereotype that the Mandarin is/was.

Iron Man also tends to avoid the "punching down" narrative that Batman all to easily falls into.

[MichaelC]

i don't agree. and i think people project depth onto the Joker that simply isn't there. he's an agent of chaos (w/ an iconic look) to counter Batman who represents order in Gotham. his maybe-background as a failed standup comedian is irrelevant. similarly, he's completely uninterested in Batman outside of the costume. i'm really not interested in proving that Mandarin could be Stark's archnemesis. i'm mainly defending the Mandarin against your depiction of him as a yellow peril offshoot that needs to be discarded. he's not Doom or Magneto. and he doesn't need to be. because Tony Stark isn't Reed Richards or Professor X. he's a swaggering alpha male who believes that money and technology can solve the world's problems.

This, pretty much. ^

Tem Borjigin is a cross between the Penguin/Black Mask and X-23. He's not yellow peril.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

Captain America #369 Apr 1990
Back up story:
"Out of his Skull"
Still trapped in his underground prison, the emaciated Red Skull begins to hallucinate.



Story by Mark Gruenwald. Art by Mark Bagley and Don Hudson.

[Raye]

Malekith feels like a character Aaron was more personally invested in, so I don't see him coming back anytime soon (even if Cates is a big fan of the run). He pretty much peaked with War of the Realms.

Short of bringing in future evil!Loki I'm not sure if anyone could properly take over the spot.

Sif deserves better, but hopefully Cates will treat her better in the role then I would've expected from the previous era.

I saw this thread got bumped and i had posted but couldn't remember what i said, but uh, yeah, back to this, looks like this has been answered, Tyr is taking Loki's place. I had kind of written him off on account of being dead and all, and sent to Valhalla besides, which is harder to come back from than Hel, but, yeah, major heel turn there. Gonna be hard to come back from unleashing an ancient evil, stealing Jane's weapon, and turning Thor into a puppet in a bid to steal Asgard's throne. But makes sense in that it keeps the familial connection, and thus the sense of betrayal, and the motivations actually do make some sense, (he is Odin's first born, so feels the throne ought to be rightly his, and that he got sidelined by Thor, and then Thor sent him to be a servant in Valhalla for eternity, so he's bitter about that too. Like, out of Thor, Loki, and Balder, he is the only one who didn't get a throne, and in fact got made a servant while they got positions of power) and it builds off his betrayal of his brothers earlier in Hel. No, he won't be Loki at his peak right away, (tho, he did start with a bang, honestly) that's something that can only come with time, but i think there is potential there. And though bad for him on a personal level, I think it's actually good for him as a character, in that, assuming Cates and whoever follows him runs with this, he will have a role in the plot as large as the one Loki used to occupy, and more development, rather than just one of Thor's other brothers who doesn't usually have much of any significance to contribute to the plot, and is just kinda there, if he's lucky.

also, Sif's been a total badass in this run, as well as the voice of reason, she's doing fine, I think this will be good for her. It's Heimdall that suffered there.

[Toxin45]

I saw this thread got bumped and i had posted but couldn't remember what i said, but uh, yeah, back to this, looks like this has been answered, Tyr is taking Loki's place. I had kind of written him off on account of being dead and all, and sent to Valhalla besides, which is harder to come back from than Hel, but, yeah, major heel turn there. Gonna be hard to come back from unleashing an ancient evil, stealing Jane's weapon, and turning Thor into a puppet in a bid to steal Asgard's throne. But makes sense in that it keeps the familial connection, and thus the sense of betrayal, and the motivations actually do make some sense, (he is Odin's first born, so feels the throne ought to be rightly his, and that he got sidelined by Thor) and it builds off his betrayal of his brothers earlier in Hel. No, he won't be Loki at his peak right away, that's something that can only come with time, but i think there is potential there. And though bad for him on a personal level, I think it's actually good for him as a character, in that, assuming Cates and whoever follows him runs with this, he will have a role in the plot as large as the one Loki used to occupy, and more development, rather than just one of Thor's other brothers who doesn't usually have much of any significance to contribute to the plot, and is just kinda there, if he's lucky.

also, Sif's been a total badass in this run, as well as the voice of reason, she's doing fine, I think this will be good for her. It's Heimdall that suffered there.

like surtur was more of an archenemy to odin and Tyr turning evil was something I wasn't expecting.

[Toxin45]

The TMNT had shredder as their arch-enemy depending on which version your looking at and Spawn has Violator,Jason Wynn,and Malebolgia.

Hellboy has Rasputin and The Ordru Jahad.

[Raye]

like surtur was more of an archenemy to odin and Tyr turning evil was something I wasn't expecting.

In hindsight, it should have been obvious after the Hel arc in Thor, and Tyr betrayed his brothers to Hela, but as I said before, he was dead, so i kinda wrote him off. I actually thought at one point they might go with Balder, if Loki got the hammer, like thinking he was undeserving etc. and trying to prove he was unworthy and sliding down a slippery slope. (and that will also likely come into play with Tyr, but the hammer thing, right now only Loki and maybe Sif know he can lift it, so not playing into his motivations just yet) because that would keep the family connection, but yeah, Tyr is a better fit for sure.

[Toxin45]

In hindsight, it should have been obvious after the Hel arc in Thor, and Tyr betrayed his brothers to Hela, but as I said before, he was dead, so i kinda wrote him off. I actually thought at one point they might go with Balder, if Loki got the hammer, like thinking he was undeserving etc. and trying to prove he was unworthy and sliding down a slippery slope. (and that will also likely come into play with Tyr, but the hammer thing, right now only Loki and maybe Sif know he can lift it, so not playing into his motivations just yet) because that would keep the family connection, but yeah, Tyr is a better fit for sure.

UNless he dies again

[Raye]

I can't see them going to the trouble of bringing him back and make him turn heel, just to off him again. Just seems wasteful. With all the other roles changing hands in Asgard, and it being strongly implied that certain positions need to be filled to maintain the whole cosmic order, it's definitely looking like he is intended to fill Loki's old role, which was left vacant when Loki turned face. It is a bit odd that it is happening in Valkyrie rather than Thor, though, but it is Aaron co-writing there, so he may be just kinda tying up a few loose ends.

[Toxin45]

I can't see them going to the trouble of bringing him back and make him turn heel, just to off him again. Just seems wasteful. With all the other roles changing hands in Asgard, and it being strongly implied that certain positions need to be filled to maintain the whole cosmic order, it's definitely looking like he is intended to fill Loki's old role, which was left vacant when Loki turned face. It is a bit odd that it is happening in Valkyrie rather than Thor, though, but it is Aaron co-writing there, so he may be just kinda tying up a few loose ends.

Well if tyr end's up becoming thor's arch-enemy like how would he able to be expanded in the wider marvel universe? Like he hasn't made much appearances in the comics.

[Raye]

Well, Loki ended up entering the broader MU by accidentally forming the Avengers, when he tried to manipulate the Hulk and things snowballed. So if patterns repeat, possibly something similar could happen here. Obviously, the Avengers already exist now, but the Rokkva he unleashed did get the Avengers involved in fighting it off. So though I think only Jane and Loki (and sort of Thor, but he's being mind controlled) know Tyr specifically is involved right now, his actions have impacted the Earth enough to get the Avengers involved already, and they will likely find out he was behind it at some point. Maybe, with all the Mephisto stuff in both Valkyrie and Avengers, he might become involved with Mephisto somehow, and a secondary Avengers team might need to be formed to deal with the small army of baddies Mephisto is forming.

[Toxin45]

Well, Loki ended up entering the broader MU by accidentally forming the Avengers, when he tried to manipulate the Hulk and things snowballed. So if patterns repeat, possibly something similar could happen here. Obviously, the Avengers already exist now, but the Rokkva he unleashed did get the Avengers involved in fighting it off. So though I think only Jane and Loki (and sort of Thor, but he's being mind controlled) know Tyr specifically is involved right now, his actions have impacted the Earth enough to get the Avengers involved already, and they will likely find out he was behind it at some point. Maybe, with all the Mephisto stuff in both Valkyrie and Avengers, he might become involved with Mephisto somehow, and a secondary Avengers team might need to be formed to deal with the small army of baddies Mephisto is forming.

He could be a simple arc villain for most arcs but not a true big bad more of an arch-rival