Future DC or Marvel movies like Joker?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I could see a "KRAVEN" movie based thematically and tonally on "Kraven's Last Hunt" without nec adapting that story or even using Spider-Man.("but how" you ask? Because Spider-Man had taken on a significance in his mind beyond Peter Parker or him as a person. Just find a substitute like.... millennials as the bane of his existence and you've got a new "Saw" franchise of him burying kids alive or hunting them to reclaim his old-school honor in a valueless modern world.... okay, not that you have to make it horror like "Saw" but it could still be a serious character study)

That sounds bad and is likewise totally unfaithful to the story. Kraven’s obsession with Spider-Man is consistent to the core and theme of his character and it only works with Spider-Man and specifically a Spider-Man who is older and married. Kraven is a hunter who believes that by defeating an animal and wearing its skin he can become that animal. In KLH, Kraven fixates on Spider-Man’s totem at the expense of the person underneath. He doesn’t care who Spider-Man is beneath the mask. But it’s Peter’s humanity, his capacity to love, to retain that which elevates him above Kraven who has no family, friends and loved ones.

I could also see a "Luthor" film showing this ruthless ambitious genius work his way to the top of the heap - like "Goodfellas" meets Bill Gates, tell the tale in a way that actually mirrors what we all know about Superman/Clark's development and really set us up for how Superman's appearance impacted the world, totally F'ing up all his plans and his ego before they even met and why Lex would be so fixated on ruining Superman.

The last thing Superman needs in movies is more Lex Luthor. With the exception of Superman III with Richard Pryor every Superman movie has had either Zod or Luthor as an enemy. Dude is overexposed at the expense of actually interesting stuff in Superman’s corner.

A Bizarro movie could work in the way the tales of Bizarroverse did in the Silver Age but the problem with Bizarro is that the comedy really works as a contrast to straight and narrow Superman and you need to establish that. It would have worked after the first two Reeve movies or even Superman Returns but not with Zack Snyder’s take still fresh as a bad taste.

[j9ac9k]

That sounds bad and is likewise totally unfaithful to the story. Kraven’s obsession with Spider-Man is consistent to the core and theme of his character and it only works with Spider-Man and specifically a Spider-Man who is older and married. Kraven is a hunter who believes that by defeating an animal and wearing its skin he can become that animal. In KLH, Kraven fixates on Spider-Man’s totem at the expense of the person underneath. He doesn’t care who Spider-Man is beneath the mask. But it’s Peter’s humanity, his capacity to love, to retain that which elevates him above Kraven who has no family, friends and loved ones.

Firstly, I already stated I'm not talking about doing an adaptation of "Last Hunt", but taking the tone and backbone - making it about Kraven without Spider-Man since we're talking about films in the vein of the Batman-less Joker movie. What you're describing is a Peter Parker story, because "Last Hunt" was about Spider-Man. The stuff you're saying about Kraven could be used by substituting a different antagonist (and no, Kraven's journey does not have to be about Spider-Man) because it would still be about Kraven, whether the antagonist is a person or a group of people or society. All those people didn't think you could take Spider-Man away from a Venom movie and like it or not, that was pretty successful too.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Firstly, I already stated I'm not talking about doing an adaptation of "Last Hunt", but taking the tone and backbone - making it about Kraven without Spider-Man since we're talking about films in the vein of the Batman-less Joker movie. What you're describing is a Peter Parker story, because "Last Hunt" was about Spider-Man. The stuff you're saying about Kraven could be used by substituting a different antagonist (and no, Kraven's journey does not have to be about Spider-Man) because it would still be about Kraven, whether the antagonist is a person or a group of people or society. All those people didn't think you could take Spider-Man away from a Venom movie and like it or not, that was pretty successful too.

-- A Venom movie without Spider-Man has more precedent than Kraven sans Spidey to start with. Well before Venom 2018, there were comics with him as the "lethal protector" and selling him as an anti-hero. So while it was a little dicey more or less Venom works as a solo-act separate from Spider-Man far more than Kraven or anyone else does.

-- Kraven as a character is the child of White Russian political exiles and of aristocratic descent who hunts and traps animals for a living across the world, working as a kind of hunter/conservationist in the Teddy Roosevelt or these days, Vladimir Putin mode. As such it's a character who doesn't really work as a Joker 2019 thing, because his origins are known/specific/and quite removed from becoming an anti-establishment symbol.

-- Most importantly, Kraven is a Hunter. He hunts down superheroes armed with nothing other than training, skills, weapons, and observation. He's closer as a villain to say, Bane, i.e. Knightfall Bane than he is to Joker. Whereas Joker is an "agent of chaos" who does things and so on, Kraven's entire motif is him hunting down animals and sport bigger and badder than him. You need to pitch Kraven against a superhero to make him work as a character. If you send Kraven against random millennials a la SAW, then the whole point of Kraven proving himself by his skills to be Spider-Man's superior as in KLH gets lost. If Kraven attacks and torments people weaker than him then he's just a bully. If he goes against Spider-Man with his powers and webbing and Spider-Sense, all in his ridiculous outfit armed with nothing other than advanced tranqs and obsession and vengeance, then he's actually impressive.

Basically, not all supervillains are equal and not every square peg can fit into a round hole of Joker 2019.

If you want to do Spider-Man villain stories without Spider-Man, then Superior Foes of Spider-Man works best. You can just do the story about being supervillains and do it like a Guy Ritchie story. Superior Foes likewise follows the example of Joker 2019 in that it's about supervillains who stay supervillains and not like Suicide Squad or Venom where the villains or anti-heroes save the world while being a-holes. Joker 2019 is a step above Venom because the character is a villain.

Among other Spidey villains, I actually think you can maybe make a solo villain story with the Hobgoblin and the entire mystery about it. You can do it a la Talented Mr. Ripley. Roderick Kingsley is a wannabe supervillain who wants to make money and he steals a gimmick from Norman Osborn/Green Goblin and then creates dummies and all around tries to evade justice and others. Kingsley as a villain has no personal beef or relationship/connection to Peter Parker/Spider-Man so he can work apart from him. And you can do a good villain centric story centered on him.

[j9ac9k]

You make very good points and you articulate your point of view very well. I agree about the Superior Foes and I like your idea about Hobgoblin. We just disagree about how a Kraven film might work. In my mind, take everything you said about Kraven, stick him in a more real world setting, even with his antiquated backstory, and give him more real world challenges that are still impressive without him taking on superhumans. Even if it were more like "most dangerous game" rather than "Saw" where he just needs to hunt people to prove himself in a world that devalues his worldview with every day, where his notion of honor is vanishing, then he's a dying breed fighting for his own honor and sense of relevance. Who he kills or fights or how it all plays out I will leave to a talented screenwriter, but all I'm saying is I can see a movie like that having potential.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You make very good points and you articulate your point of view very well. I agree about the Superior Foes and I like your idea about Hobgoblin.

Thanks.

We just disagree about how a Kraven film might work.

That's fair.

Even if it were more like "most dangerous game" rather than "Saw" where he just needs to hunt people to prove himself in a world that devalues his worldview with every day, where his notion of honor is vanishing, then he's a dying breed fighting for his own honor and sense of relevance. Who he kills or fights or how it all plays out I will leave to a talented screenwriter, but all I'm saying is I can see a movie like that having potential.

I guess it would, it's just that it's hard to do a movie like that without it making Kraven some kind of serial killer psycho, which Kraven the Hunter in the original story isn't. The point is Kraven in that story is a tragic villain with some bearing and nobility. He's not a simple supervillain out for world domination or a criminal out to make a quick buck, that's never really been a defining feature. His defining feature is wanting to hunt down Spider-Man, overcome him, and prove himself to be master to him the way he is master to every other animal he has hunted. That doesn't work if you don't have a superhero who is super-strong with additional powers that Kraven hath not.

[useridgoeshere]

Using the Joker formula, you could turn any Holocaust movie with a kid into a Magneto movie by naming the kid Eric.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Using the Joker formula, you could turn any Holocaust movie with a kid into a Magneto movie by naming the kid Eric.

Nope.
-- Making a movie about the Holocaust means a lot of period detail, European locations, costumes, props and so on. Joker got away with 80s NY period setting but it'd be harder and more expensive to recreate wartorn Eastern Europe and an Auschwitz set.
-- Magneto as a character works on a much bigger scale than Joker. Because he grew up in Poland, then traveled to Israel, and other places and then came to America. Magneto is fundamentally a global character and a big scale figure, he's an actual revolutionary with international appeal with the power and temperament of the Old Testament God.

And in any case, a Magneto prequel has already been made and covered in X-Men First Class as it is.

[ComicJunkie21]

Hopefully the MCU adaption of the X-Men moves up for development. It will be interesting on how they adapt the storylines and characters as X-Men as a whole is a little more mature in terms of theme and content. Magneto is imo the best villain in all of Marvel comics. He has so many layers to him that can be explored. Additionally, it would be easy to make him relatable to minorities and first generation immigrants as the struggles for acceptance are very similar to real world struggles.

[Beaddle]

A Noah Hawley's Dr Doom film would be a good follow up to a Joker kind of film.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

A Noah Hawley's Dr Doom film would be a good follow up to a Joker kind of film.

Like Magneto, Doom is a character on a very big scale and grand scope. He's a scientist-sorceror-rebel-king-dictator of an Eastern European country.

Visually it's got to be spectacular because you need the Doombots, the tech, the magic, and so on. You also need an international scope since Doom starts in Latveria, goes to USA, then Tibet, and also visits other dimensions and places.

[MoneySpider]

They could probably make a movie about a psychological study of Two-Face, but none of that "rob a bank on a Tuesday at 2:00 with two revolvers and take 2 sets of twins hostage and escape on a bike that requires two people to pedal, etc. etc." stuff.

[PoorStudent]

I think Namor would work.

There is also Venom and Morbius.

And Birds of Prey is kind of an ensemble villain movie, and I guess suicide squad was as well. They could make a Darth Vader movie, a Magneto movie, a Lex Luthor movie.

Personally I'd love a Fin Fang Foom movie. I'd see it regardless of how good it was.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20150911224651

[batnbreakfast]

ANTI-LIFE (Equation)
The scariest thing DC has. Our world shortly before and shortly after it hits. A movie with the New Gods toturing us.

[XPac]

Using the Joker formula, you could turn any Holocaust movie with a kid into a Magneto movie by naming the kid Eric.

The easiest marvel villain to give the Joker formula might be Kingpin. But the Net Flicks Daredevil show did a good enough job with that to the point where it really doesn't need to be revisited.