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  1. #1
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Default Any New 52 Superman in Doomsday Clock? Potential SPOILERS

    As noted in the headline, there are potential SPOILERS in this thread.

    I saw a few pannels of Doomsday Clock in an excerpt from an Internet article. Lois and Clark were in bed, and Clark has a nightmare that consists of his parents dying the way and at the time they died in the New 52 timeline. Lois reminds him that it was just a dream, and Clark says he's never had a dream before (It may be that the dialogue actually specified that he never had a nightmare before.

    Without having read any of what's around it in the Doomsday Clock thing, it seems obvious that Clark remembering this element of the New52 timeline is going to play into Doctor Manhattan having altered the timeline and so on and so forth. It may be a prelude to Clark getting his parents back (Which I think is a mistake, honestly- If Superman remains an older character with a son, he basically is Pa Kent for his son [Maybe even more so if these 5g rumors are accurate], making having an actual Jonathan Kent redundant. If they go with a younger Clark with no son [Or Jon as the remnant of an obsolete timeline like post-Crisis Power Girl- technically not the son of the then-current Superman, but matching his genetic makeup or a son Clark could have had.], having parents he goes to for advise could serve to infantilize the character [Common practice for things about adult characters that are trying to appeal to readers who are children is to give the adults parents and put them in a childlike setup so the kids can identify with them, often at the expense of true adult drama. Really, the one adult from that generation who works for me is General Lane, because he adds a lot of dramatic tension in various ways. Jor-El's return was fine as a gimmick, but in the long-run, he needs to have died on Krypton as a good guy- it's key to Superman's character.]).

    Sooo, what are the odds we actually *see* the New52 Superman in Doomsday Clock as an active character? Has he been shown? Could he be split out from the Reborn Superman (Or recreated without altering the Reborn Superman) and be alive in the DC Universe when they're done?

    I'm assuming they won't do any of that, but as a New52 Superman fan, I have to ask.

    As an aside, for those interested, I'm told there is a brief one panel reference to the New52 Superman in Grant Morrison's Blackstars series (Green Lantern related comic).

    If anyone needs context on what I have and haven't read, I've read all the Bendis Superman and Action Comics stuff up to the final issues of the recently released trades, but not current with the monthly releases. Basically, I like Bendis take on Superman with the older Jon (Thank Rao they finally aged that kid up) better than I liked Rebirth Superman or Reborn Superman: The Pre-Bendis Years (Bendis' version feels more like Superman to me than the Rebirth and Reborn eras immediately prior. Plus, Bendis is great at writing humor. I liked his X-Men stuff, too.). It's still not even close to as good as the New 52 Superman, though. It's good enough to digitally checkout from my library for free when they get the trades (Which I do). It's not good enough to buy monthly, which is what I did with New 52 Superman and would do again if they ever brought him back (Which at this point seems highly doubtful- never say never in comics, but...).
    Last edited by SuperCrab; 12-07-2019 at 12:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    He was shown in previous issues where they explained metaverse. It wasn't just him though,both him, silverage superboy and goldenage superman was shown.Other than that morrison's superman is running around the multiverse similar to wally.
    As for older jon he just lacks any personality. They are shoving clark's personality and 'pa' nonesense on to him.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    His era is given a bit of shade. Essentially, Manhatten tried to remove a lot of the warmth to Clark's origin (basically the Kents getting to live as they did Post-Crisis and making their death violent as a car crash) to make him more aloof and brooding, which he admits helps him relate to him more. It's treated kind of like "he's not a paragon of virtue so now I can vibe with this Superman." If that sounds broad, well it is. It happens over the course of two or three panels if I recall. New 52 is hardly in consideration. Superman here exists more as an amalgamation of his history, with the marriage and a slight reference to fatherhood, but otherwise it could be any Superman. His sliding reboots along the timeline do play a plot point.

    By and large, it seems DC (save for a few people) is turning Superman's New 52 era into a slight cautionary tale. Not full-blown "what were we doing" with Superman Blue, but still "yeah that's not a great period, let's keep going."
    Last edited by Robanker; 12-07-2019 at 12:43 PM.

  4. #4
    Incredible Member SuperCrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    He was shown in previous issues where they explained metaverse. It wasn't just him though,both him, silverage superboy and goldenage superman was shown.
    Thanks. It's good to have him acknowledged, although it's kind of a "least they can do" sort of thing, it sounds like, where not including him would seem like an active slight, but where they didn't really feature him in the story.

    His best story beat that I've seen after they killed him off in The Final Days of Superman was in the Superman Reborn crossover where SuperDad falls and Lois and Jon are knocked off the extra-dimensional tower by Mxy, and then, after a dramatic pause, we see New52 Superman fly up and hover, with Lois in one arm and Jon in the other, staring down Mxy to end one of the issues. Of course, that was kind of it for him, sadly. A good moment, though.

    I guess some of the stuff in the Justice League of America run where they fight Rao would be in that category if you consider it as being after The Final Days of Superman, but that's very open to interpretations, because it is definitely set before TFDOS in-universe (the last issue even foreshadows it), but due to delays, a lot of those issues came out after TFDOS in real life. Despite early talk that it was out of continuity, the ending, and some stuff in mainstream Justice League afterwards pretty established it as in continuity (As an aside, some of Hitch Justice League stuff where the other members of the league have doubts about Rebirth Superman- back before the timeline was rewritten as him having always been there- and don't just accept him was nice to see.). So, it just comes down to whether it's "The last new thing published" or "The last thing that the fictional DC universe experienced".

    There was also some talk that the Superman in JLA was really just a generic Superman, but he had the New52 Superman costume and the ending pretty much established that's who he was. I also felt like he was written as the New52 Superman, just a specific take on him that I might associate with things like Superman Unchained or the Dan Jurgens run in the New2 era of the main Superman title. I actually remember reminding (Via some Internet medium- I'm thinking Twitter, though I don't maintain a Twitter account, so it either happened to coincide with the month I had an account, or I signed up for an account just to say that and then deleted it) Jurgens that he wrote the New52 Superman and did a good job with it when he had moved on to SuperDad and started mildly trashing the New52 Superman- which to Jurgens' credit, he responded reasonably kindly to.

    It's hard to see the main Superman after the Superman Reborn thing as being the New52 Superman in any substantial way. Since by that point they clearly weren't bringing back as an independent character, I approved of the idea of merging him, but rather than the character coming out of it being written as 50% like the Rebirth Superman and 50% like the New52 Superman there after, they just wrote the comics coming out of that like it was the Rebirth Superman except he was no longer a refugee from another universe (Although the Superman character is *always* a refugee- just typically only from Krypton to Earth and not one universe to another) and had been born and lived his entire life (Plus or minus a few adventures in the multiverse) in the universe he currently existed in, and that most of his associates remembered him that way. The closest I see to the New52 Superman coming out after the merger is that Bendis Superman seems to have a sense of humor.

    It's nice that at one point the main Superman is established as historically having worn the high color costume and having fought at least one of the bad guys unique to the New52 (Meaning a lot of those stories could be said to be part of main continuity). I do genuinely like that. However, it doesn't seem to really come into play very often if at all. It's just sort of something we know, but not something we see. The relationship with Wonder Woman never happened to this Superman at all, which is not for me necessarily key to what makes the New52 Superman different (I think he would have eventually wound up with Lois anyway), but is something that would have at least come up occasionally had they not firmly established that it wasn't part of the current guy's history. I don't think it would have done any damage to things to have said Reborn Superman dated Wonder Woman before he dated Lois, when Lois didn't know his identity and was blowing off Clark.

    At this point, I think it would be hard to really think of Reborn Superman as being a continuation of the New52 Superman in any substantial way. I mean, if you made me the writer, he would be. You'd basically see me constantly sneaking in references and such. However, the way they did it, he wasn't. That could have come out of Reborn, but it didn't.

    Other than that morrison's superman is running around the multiverse similar to wally.
    I would really love to read that book. It's odd that Wally got a book based on that premise and they couldn't do it with Morrison's Clark. I am one of the few people who likes the New52 "five years later" Superman better than the New 52 "five years earlier" (Morrison) Superman (They're the same person at different stages of their lives, though, of course.), but I'd happily read a book about either of them or a close stand-in.

    That reminds me that I should digitally check out Heroes in Crisis from my library soon.

    As for older jon he just lacks any personality. They are shoving clark's personality and 'pa' nonesense on to him.
    I'm just glad they made Jon older because I find it easier to read a book where he is almost an adult- it in theory should make his character better and Clark's character better (From the perspective of not liking the Superman as Dad with a little boy who fights evil doing and reluctantly washes dishes)- even if Jon as a 17 year old turns out to be kind of bland.

    Actually, what should really be interesting is what they do with Jon's character if he becomes Superman (As some of these 5g rumors state). Part of me would like to see him written like the New52 Superman, for obvious reasons, but there is another part of me that feels like that really isn't a logical outgrowth of Jon's characterization to date. It might have worked had he come back from his trip with Jor-El a bit more broody and edgy, but he doesn't seem to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    His era is given a bit of shade. Essentially, Manhatten tried to remove a lot of the warmth to Clark's origin (basically the Kents getting to live as they did Post-Crisis and making their death violent as a car crash) to make him more aloof and brooding, which he admits helps him relate to him more. It's treated kind of like "he's not a paragon of virtue so now I can vibe with this Superman."
    You know, in a way, I do think New52 Superman was easier to relate to for people who maybe haven't had everything go their way in life. He still has the traditional Superman values and optimism, but with kind of a broodiness and cynical humor that kind of makes it work more. His social justice work as both Clark and Superman was also awesome. There was a bit of a Superman melds with Cyclops from the X-Men vibe.

    On the Superman spectrum, Rebirth Superman was the polar opposite. It was like Superman melds with Danny Tanner from Full House. Bendis is kind of getting him a little closer to the middle range on that spectrum, fortunately.

    There's always a danger with Superman that he can be written in a way that makes him so conservative, cheesy, and paternal that it rings hollow, stops being relatable, and even borders on dislikable or questionably authoritarian. New52 Superman kept all the important parts of the Superman mythos and character, but drove in the opposite direction of the pitfalls the character can sometimes fall into, and restored some long missing elements like siding with the people over the powerful and being a social justice guy (Which is established right from the getgo in 1938, but is often ignored).

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I genuinely think new52 superman is very much part of the metaverse. But jon being old ain't the problem for me though. It's just when it comes to personality and style of an older jon. i don't see him growing up to be like clark, exactly .i see Jon being like peter parker, wally west or dick grayson in personality.
    Also, i had a theory that morrison's superman and wally are going to meet and team up. They are both didio's projects.it was something i wanted to see. But, i don't know if it will happen.

  6. #6
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    You should probably give up the ghost on N52 Supes man.
    Last edited by The World; 12-07-2019 at 04:41 PM.
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  7. #7
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperCrab View Post
    You know, in a way, I do think New52 Superman was easier to relate to for people who maybe haven't had everything go their way in life. He still has the traditional Superman values and optimism, but with kind of a broodiness and cynical humor that kind of makes it work more. His social justice work as both Clark and Superman was also awesome. There was a bit of a Superman melds with Cyclops from the X-Men vibe.

    On the Superman spectrum, Rebirth Superman was the polar opposite. It was like Superman melds with Danny Tanner from Full House. Bendis is kind of getting him a little closer to the middle range on that spectrum, fortunately.

    There's always a danger with Superman that he can be written in a way that makes him so conservative, cheesy, and paternal that it rings hollow, stops being relatable, and even borders on dislikable or questionably authoritarian. New52 Superman kept all the important parts of the Superman mythos and character, but drove in the opposite direction of the pitfalls the character can sometimes fall into, and restored some long missing elements like siding with the people over the powerful and being a social justice guy (Which is established right from the getgo in 1938, but is often ignored).
    Well I've buried half my family, dealt with mental health issues and gave up my higher education midway (and thus have lots of loans to repay without a great job) to take care of an ailing elder so I would argue I don't have it all going my way and New 52 Supes didn't come across that way to me. He came across as a response to the classic interpretation of the guy, but without as much depth outside of Morrison. He came across as a group of editors not quite getting Superman, but trying to do a new take on the Golden Age, but with a '90s flair so get all that emotional junk out of my kewl Superman books. Sometimes he worked fine, most the time he didn't. I don't want to derail this into another discussion of the New 52 Superman (because it's always either that, Snyder or Batman these days) but I'll say you certainly have a different take on that time than I do.

    Doomsday Clock is so far not going to be your cup of tea. The book is arguing that Jon (who sympathizes with New 52 Superman) is objectively wrong, out of touch with humanity and is causing problems by interfering. Essentially, Superman is at the heart of the metaverse and he's generally a happy person. Trying to push that in a different direction by darkening it (killing Alan Scott, the Kents, etc) is objectively the worst timeline for DC. I can't say that eleven issues in that it will be for you.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I guarantee you that DC and Johns aren’t going to bring ANYTHING from the New 52 back, except for the bits that Johns himself did. The current canon origin seems to be the skeleton of Secret Origin (no surprise Johns picked the one he wrote). Xau-Du is still canon given he showed up in Supergirl and in some Halloween specials. But otherwise it’s basically been retconned out just like Byrne before it. Perhaps one day we’ll see more elements get adapted elsewhere, but for now we’ll just have to enjoy the good parts of that run that happened.

    I still hold out hope that one day people will look at Morrison’s Action run more favorably one day and that maybe elements of it will reappear but for now it’s a pipe dream.
    Last edited by Vordan; 12-07-2019 at 06:41 PM.

  9. #9
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Its over, Johnny!

    But yeah, like Frontier said, DC is even narratively treating it now as something that should have never happened. That pretty much tells the tale of where things stand. A template of SO Superman is obviously what most within are comfortable with, so that's how things are likely going to be for quite some time. When the power structure and creative minds substantially change, then who knows, but even then I would expect future changes to Superman to be something that is its own thing.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-07-2019 at 06:27 PM.
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  10. #10
    Spectacular Member Superbat's Avatar
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    New 52 Superman is gone.

    It's time to move on. DC has.

  11. #11
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I guarantee you that DC and Johns aren’t going to bring ANYTHING from the New 52 back, except for the bits that Johns himself did. The current canon origin seems to be the skeleton of Secret Origin (no surprise Johns picked the one he wrote). Xau-Du is still canon given he showed up in Supergirl and in some Halloween specials. But otherwise it’s basically been retconned out just like Byrne before it. Perhaps one day we’ll see more elements get adapted elsewhere, but for now we’ll just have to enjoy the good parts of that run that happened.

    I still hold out hope that one day people will look at Morrison’s Action run more favorably one day and that maybe elements of it will reappear but for now it’s a pipe dream.
    Hey, I'm vocal about not liking the New 52 Supes, but even I enjoy Morrison's run, though I have my reservations.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superbat View Post
    New 52 Superman is gone.

    It's time to move on. DC has.
    As long people exist that like pre crisis supermen exist,new52 superman will never be truly gone.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Hey, I'm vocal about not liking the New 52 Supes, but even I enjoy Morrison's run, though I have my reservations.
    Ha was moreso talking about the people outside this forum that I’ve talked to not anyone here. On this forum most people are pretty good at acknowledging that even takes on Superman they don’t like do have some good features (i.e. my own dislike of Snyder’s Superman aside, his Zod is the best Zod I’ve seen and his portrayal of Superman’s powers is stunning).

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Ha was moreso talking about the people outside this forum that I’ve talked to not anyone here. On this forum most people are pretty good at acknowledging that even takes on Superman they don’t like do have some good features (i.e. my own dislike of Snyder’s Superman aside, his Zod is the best Zod I’ve seen and his portrayal of Superman’s powers is stunning).
    More than most, he really did try to highlight Lois as an investigative journalist and have her a pretty great introduction. Clark learning to fly also came across clumsy and enthusiastic-- exactly as it should. Yeah, I hate Snyder's take but even a broken clock is right twice a day, so to speak.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    supercrab, did you already know about the sidewars annual where new 52 superman appeared, written by grant morrison?

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