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  1. #841
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    The Shade above Dr Fate and the Wizard close? That is crazy talk. Fate was a step below the full powered Spectre. Take that to the Rumbles board and see what happens.
    I don't think the Wizard even had powers until the Bronze Age. It was just a schtick in the Golden Age, and I don't know that he even made an appearance in the Silver Age. Shade was basically at Shadow Lass levels until Robinson upgraded him in Starman. Dr. Fate has always been impressive, but he did have trouble going up against Solomon Grundy.

    Correction: he was downgraded considerably towards the end of his first run -- when he was wearing that silly half-mask. I think he was limited to super-strength, flying and some levitation.
    Last edited by kcekada; 07-01-2020 at 06:43 PM.

  2. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcekada View Post
    I don't think the Wizard even had powers until the Bronze Age. It was just a schtick in the Golden Age, and I don't know that he even made an appearance in the Silver Age. Shade was basically at Shadow Lass levels until Robinson upgraded him in Starman. Dr. Fate has always been impressive, but he did have trouble going up against Solomon Grundy.

    Correction: he was downgraded considerably towards the end of his first run -- when he was wearing that silly half-mask. I think he was limited to super-strength, flying and some levitation.
    Agreed but when he had the full helmet he was doing things like blowing up and underwater city and pushing an alien planet into the sun. Until post crisis there was no comparison between him and the Shade.

  3. #843
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    Sigh Fate was disintegrating stuff in early appearances. The Shade was low powered until Robinson took a liking to him in the post crisis era. So for the first 40 years or so Fate was vastly more powerful. The Shade May be more powerful for one period of DC continuity but that doesnít change the past. Again I say start a thread on rumbles for the most powerful versions I donít have a scanner anymore.
    No Fate wasnt disintergrating stuff in his early appearances. He had one single instance of rearranging the atoms of a vase. That was full helmet GA Fate which he lost less than 6 months into print. He only had about 10 appearances with any significant power level prior to the late 1970s (he and the JSA returned in 1979 which is the bronze age. He never regained a full helmet and all ots power until then well untrully into the Bronze age. When I get home I can scan my comics and load images from every appearance bar a few in the middle of the GA that show exactly how his level was portrayed by era. Similarly I can show multiple scans of Spectre during that era who also wasnt anywhere near as powerful as the Bronze age and beyond.

    Stories like those told in Flash Comics or the repronts of them in The Immortal Dr Fate mininseries were the first time Dr Gaye was portrayed as the type powerhouse your thread link describes. Those stories were in the early 80s and 40 years after he debuted. I like the hypocrasy that we have to treat a villain at levels he was portrayed decades ago but a hero has a different scale by which they are measured and we exclude an early 40 yesr lower power level for some unknown reason.

  4. #844
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Minor point. Shade and Obsidian share the same power source, but Todd's power is far greater than Shade's.
    Todd himself stated the exact opposite on panel in JLA.

  5. #845
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    Since the thread is about the TV show, maybe you should limit the examples to the TV show. All of this "proof based on comics" is nothing more than speculation with nothing to support it as applying to the show.

  6. #846
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    I wonder if the Dr. Midnight goggles would start telling Beth things that she didn't want to know, like it would read someone and tell them like medical facts and such that Beth would have no interest in knowing, things that she would view as being none of her business, I mean telling like Courtney's weight would be just the start...do that for the humor aspect of it I mean...

  7. #847
    Incredible Member signalman112's Avatar
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    Another amazing fight scene, this time between Stargirl and Shiv.

    Here is an interview with director Lea Thompson.

    https://decider.com/2020/06/30/dc-st...one-interview/

  8. #848
    Mighty Member 90'sCartoonMan's Avatar
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    I was really surprised by Cindy having known everything about her father and the ISA in this episode. I was thinking her losing her boyfriend and popularity was going to push her over to the villain side, but it looked like she was almost entirely there. Which is a shame since she and Courtney found some common ground and almost became friends (or is it a shame? If they became too close, Courtney would probably try to check her ring size to prepare her to be the new Green Lantern). Still, they are very similar.

    I guess they can go either way as to whether or not Stargirl and Shiv know each other's identities, but it felt to me that Courtney did recognize her but knew enough not to call out her name in that moment of revelation.

    I like Mike's jealousy over Pat spending a lot of time with Courtney. Mike and Barbara seem to be forming a genuine, healthy bond whereas Pat and Courtney are clearly lying and keeping secrets, which hurts Mike in the long run.

    Shining Knight! The Stargirl/Shiv fight was cool enough, but having him get involved was awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamFTF View Post
    Watched the latest episode. We got Shiv, Dragon King, a Homecoming game, a fight at Blue Valley High, janitor Shining Knight . . . it's possible the Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E.-iest episode yet.
    It felt very intentional too, only having Beth, Yolanda, and Rick briefly in the beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Not only did Courtney completely undermine Pat trying to teach the kids about who they were facing but she had to show off she's the main character by making it all about her. And then once again she rushes headlong into something without thinking just to prove herself, only this time she finally has to deal with some serious consequences after Shiv hands her her butt and leaves her critically wounded. Hopefully this finally knocks some real sense into Courtney.
    She definitely sees herself as the main character. Even though she hasn't been at this much longer than the others, she thinks of herself as having seniority because she's the one who brought them in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchist View Post
    Also, what are these servants of Cindy's father? Mindless Lizard men?
    Did he say something about the brainwashing process taking weeks?

  9. #849
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Since the thread is about the TV show, maybe you should limit the examples to the TV show. All of this "proof based on comics" is nothing more than speculation with nothing to support it as applying to the show.
    Agreed. This is a different universe, so these discussions are pointless, IMO.
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  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post
    No Fate wasnt disintergrating stuff in his early appearances. He had one single instance of rearranging the atoms of a vase. That was full helmet GA Fate which he lost less than 6 months into print. He only had about 10 appearances with any significant power level prior to the late 1970s (he and the JSA returned in 1979 which is the bronze age. He never regained a full helmet and all ots power until then well untrully into the Bronze age. When I get home I can scan my comics and load images from every appearance bar a few in the middle of the GA that show exactly how his level was portrayed by era. Similarly I can show multiple scans of Spectre during that era who also wasnt anywhere near as powerful as the Bronze age and beyond.

    Stories like those told in Flash Comics or the repronts of them in The Immortal Dr Fate mininseries were the first time Dr Gaye was portrayed as the type powerhouse your thread link describes. Those stories were in the early 80s and 40 years after he debuted. I like the hypocrasy that we have to treat a villain at levels he was portrayed decades ago but a hero has a different scale by which they are measured and we exclude an early 40 yesr lower power level for some unknown reason.
    False in More Fun Comics 61 he shoved a pirate Planet into the sun.He was insanely powerful. You are the one who Has FALSELY claimed that the Shade was always more powerful. I have proven that is wrong. There in no hypocrisy on my part just dishonesty on yours.

  11. #851
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Since the thread is about the TV show, maybe you should limit the examples to the TV show. All of this "proof based on comics" is nothing more than speculation with nothing to support it as applying to the show.
    Yes, this. Plus it has the potential to spoil things for those of us who did not read the comic.
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  12. #852
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    False in More Fun Comics 61 he shoved a pirate Planet into the sun.He was insanely powerful. You are the one who Has FALSELY claimed that the Shade was always more powerful. I have proven that is wrong. There in no hypocrisy on my part just dishonesty on yours.
    Show me where I said ALWAYS?

    Ive asked this before becasue I never stated that. I Said that shade is above Fate because he himslef (Kent Nelson/Dr Fate) has stated so on panel and I provided the scan that proves that. Not once did I say this was always the case, just that it is in current continuity. Ibe already asked why we have to apply ancient outdated levels to Shade when we dont to fate

    To which you respoded that it was a post crisis upgrade and I pointed out that so are most of Fate's uber powers. His showings in his first 40 years only had a very few high level stand outs (one of which you referenced)


    Ive been waiting for a few hours for my onternet to come back on so I had to go mobile phone to post bit I canload scans another day to show per issue if required

    In more fun comics 55 the extent of Fate's powers are undoing the bonds in a vase to turn it to dust, firing a flame blast, and giving Inza strength to hit a beast. Other than that he throws Wotan out a window. That was his first appearance. That was cover dayed march 1940.

    In more fun 56 transports them to the afterlife to see of Wotan is there. Fires another fire ball and uses hisnenergy to make wotan's machine not work. Then another physical fight.

    More fun comics 57 he fails to shield inza who is taken by ghosts that his energy doesnt work on. He creates a small explosion to get through a wall to her and gives her protect via a spell. Fires another flame ball and physical fights again

    58 he seeks a book of magic that caused Atlantis and Mu to fall. He finds it beingnused to destroy earth and physically fight the wizard that has it to get it off him. Pretty.much only shown flying and casting spells to see things.

    59 he fights some aliens. Basically he absorbs the energy of their weapons and uses it to destroy their weapons

    60 he fired spme fireballs at little clay men who were created by beings innthe hills and did the same to them.

    Regarding issue 61, your correct. He moved a planet into a sun. Literally one of the only three showings of high level power he had prior to 1979. Another being when he tranported to a hell Lords realm and defeated him (though not really shown as much). And the third being when he unvieled time and space to some mystic. Other than that all we ever saw Fate do in the Golden age was fire lightning or fireballs, make weapons disappes, draw energy from scientists devices to break them, or once control the wind to make a broken building fall safely.

    He lost his full helmet in issue 70 or so, July or august 1941 and continued appearing in More fun till issue 98 1944. So out of 44 appearances in More fun comics innthe Golden Age he has three feats that put on a level above say Dr Druid from Marvel.

    Thats not counting the way he was totally owned by Ian Karkull in All star Squadron annual 3. Ian has the same shadow power to a lower degree than Shade or Obsidian and Fate had to summon the rest of the JSA to save him.

    I dont cherry pick feats when I rate a character. I take all feats and balance them. Maybe you should try the same. Based on overall showings BW has bested even Bronze age amped Fate in all Star 55, 56. And taken on the entire team in all bit two appearances (his first appearance in the ISA with Thinker, Wizard, Vandal Savage, Gambler etc- of course in that issue he wasnt even shown with powers only as an inventor)

  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post
    1. Spectre wasnt said to have the "power of god" in the GA. BW telepathically made Spec sense a danger elsewhere that needed his attention because he wasnt ready to face him in one story. In another he fought Soectre with his mental constructs. Comic Brainwave could create GL like constructs from his mind with sheer force of will. He did so from accross the country and planet. So for example in one story one of Brainwave's mental construct thugs had pulled a crime for him as Spec chased them they shot at an innocent. Spec tried to protect the innocent and then stopped to check on them. When he went after the consteuct is disolved after hiding the loot. In All Star Squadron 19 and 20 Brainwave was fighting the JSA with mental constructs of the entire Japanese military might AND a mental construct of the Spectre. He literally had his 3d mental construct of the Spectre grow giant size and crush Hawkman

    Jay in the modern era was likited to sonic level speeds for quite some time. He had had a heart attack and couldnt push his speed too high without risking another. His power allows him the same power level as Barry erc his age and health doesnt.

    Johnny Thunder was an idiot 80% + of JSA stories showed him not even remembering/knowing what his magic word to summon the Thunderbolt was. He usually only did so by sheer dumb luck only, and was suprised when the Thunderbolt finally appeared. For most of JSA stories he is as effective and dangerous as Snapper Carr in the JLA

    Wizard wasnt far behind Fate in power in most of their stories at all, however Shade is quite a hit above Fate and always was.

    The fiddler was a plot device character. That magic fiddle of his could do almost anything and was every bit as powerful as Thunderbolt etc.

    Grundy is an elemental that absorbs energy and is particularly partial to magic energy. The reasonnhe was stomping Fate+ Alan + Hourman is because he had absorbed so much of their magic energy (as well as radiation in his swamp) he had developed other powers like moving things will



    Most other times it only amped his strength etc. Its literally the reason he's so inconsistent in power level
    You seem to be picking and choosing what power levels each of the JSA have. GA Spectre, Modern Age Jay etc. If it is the modern age and the inclusion of Courtney as Stargirl would imply that than Spectre has the power of god and he curb stomps the ISA by himself. So does the 5D Thunderbolt.

  14. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by mburns View Post
    You seem to be picking and choosing what power levels each of the JSA have. GA Spectre, Modern Age Jay etc. If it is the modern age and the inclusion of Courtney as Stargirl would imply that than Spectre has the power of god and he curb stomps the ISA by himself. So does the 5D Thunderbolt.
    Since the show doesn't have to play by an CB continuity rules, I would bet money that the Spectre on Stargirl wasn't the all-powerful one.
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  15. #855
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sCartoonMan View Post
    Did he say something about the brainwashing process taking weeks?
    He said it "takes two weeks to condition them." I'm guessing they're reanimated corpses, which is why he asked for the Magician's body.

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