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  1. #856
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Since the show doesn't have to play by an CB continuity rules, I would bet money that the Spectre on Stargirl wasn't the all-powerful one.
    There's a lot of ways to write out the Spectre.

  2. #857
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    There's a lot of ways to write out the Spectre.
    True. The way the producers decided to do it was make him more like the GA version, which is okay by me.
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  3. #858
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Wait, do we even know the Spectre is part of the team in this continuity? He wasn't in the team photo, as far as I can recall.

  4. #859
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Wait, do we even know the Spectre is part of the team in this continuity? He wasn't in the team photo, as far as I can recall.
    Heh. I honestly don't recall, Frontier. I just assumed he was because enough people here having been talking about him!
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  5. #860
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    I don't think he was. That doesn't mean he wasn't a member at some point.

    I don't know if it's being considered, but I can easily see a JSA or Infinity Inc spinning out of Stargirl. But that would probably not happen until Stargirl ends -- unless they do a series set in the past (which would probably be my preference).

    By the way, I wasn't looking forward to Shiv's debut -- because I didn't think much of her when she appeared in Geoff Johns' JSA run. But now I am loving her! The ultimate mean girl (yet still somewhat likable as a character).

  6. #861
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    I wonder if Shiv knows that she was only born to keep track on her father's enemies, wonder what would happen if he felt that she'd done her job and he left her to die or something along those lines and then Courtney saved her...how would that go, would she still be bad or maybe not as bad...

  7. #862
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post

    Wizard wasnt far behind Fate in power in most of their stories at all, however Shade is quite a hit above Fate and always was.

    The fiddler was a plot device character. That magic fiddle of his could do almost anything and was every bit as powerful as Thunderbolt etc.

    Grundy is an elemental that absorbs energy and is particularly partial to magic energy. The reasonnhe was stomping Fate+ Alan + Hourman is because he had absorbed so much of their magic energy (as well as radiation in his swamp) he had developed other powers like moving things will



    Most other times it only amped his strength etc. Its literally the reason he's so inconsistent in power level

    There you go, I deleted the part above that but you said always and that is where this started.


    Editing to add, certainly I would balance feats, BUT, because DC resets it continuity multiple times you can only really do so on one side of a reset. IOW golden and silver age feats can go together because the first reset is COIE. Then you can use feats from there to the next reset and so on. I lost count of their resets years ago.
    Last edited by regnak; 07-02-2020 at 01:47 PM.

  8. #863
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post
    There you go, I deleted the part above that but you said always and that is where this started.


    Editing to add, certainly I would balance feats, BUT, because DC resets it continuity multiple times you can only really do so on one side of a reset. IOW golden and silver age feats can go together because the first reset is COIE. Then you can use feats from there to the next reset and so on. I lost count of their resets years ago.
    Fair enough, dont know why I said that unless it was because the GA Shade wasnt the same character. That being the case I appologise, it certsinly wasnt intended.

    I mean literally he had a completely different alter ego and no powers etc in his 3 golden age appearances. His first appearance in Flash 33 he literally only had a machine that controlled dust in the air to make it dark. Flash beat him by making a whirlwind and taling the dust outnof keystone city.

    The shade only appeared twice more before JLA in the 60s (innwhich he was reallynonly shown in team images of the villains and didnt show much).Then his next appearance I'm aware of was post crisis, the one where it was he who removed Keystone city from the post coie earth (about his 5th or maybe 6th appearance in comics, and he could casually remove a city from existence while the fiddler removed the memory of it from the general populous. Ive not seen him depicted below this level since and Ive never seen Dr Fate do anything on that level, not once). All so that the flash of two worlds story could remain in a world that didnt have two earths.

    I definitely wasnt refering to the pre coie Shade who wasnt even Richard Swift (the character we have had since Crisis) and who didnt have powers at all. The version of the GA doesnt resemble in any way ehat eenhave had since the Silver age.

    As for resetting things it doesn't actually apply to most of the villains the majority of the DC villains didn't make a great deal of appearances in the golden age (because heroes mostly fought normal criminals) the Wizard for example only appeared three times before the Bronze Age. He debuted in 1947 in all star comics 34 and appeared once more that year (All Star 37 IIRC, I'll have to find my copy)and again the next year also in All star (41 rings a bell)as a member of the ISA (those two issues 37,41 were the only pre bronze appearances of the ISA by the way)

    When he later appeared in JLA in the in the early 70s I think about 1973 (so the Bronze Age are after the silver age that you seem to claim the upgraded villains and was only his 4th appearance) he was able to pull the writer of JLA into the comic make him a villain with a spell who then went against the JLA for him and commited crimes that the ISA took the loot from. Said writer was casually reality manipulating to beat the JLA.

    The next appearance that he had would have been an all star comics Revival and then again in Jala where he casually transferred the souls of the Injustice Society with those of the Justice League. The result was that the wizard was in the body of Superman

    So pretty much from his fourth appearance onwards he wasn't far behind Doctor Fate. Throughout the entirety of his print since then he has actually been depicted around the same level no retcon or change to power levels.

    The fact is none of the iterstions of those handful of low powered appearances would apply in the comics to any reality that had a Courtney Whitmore and a Stargirl. All these alterations came well after that. The fact that shadow could grab and pull Dr Midnite in episode one confirmsnthisnisnt a shade with a machine making dust move to make it dark. I think that is pretty safe to say.

    So what I should have said is that shade has always been above Dr Fate in the current and relevant continuity. That is definintely true for the continuity that exists post crisis in the world that led to Stars and stripes comics (on which the show is based).

  9. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoganAlpha30X33 View Post
    I wonder if Shiv knows that she was only born to keep track on her father's enemies, wonder what would happen if he felt that she'd done her job and he left her to die or something along those lines and then Courtney saved her...how would that go, would she still be bad or maybe not as bad...
    I think she will remain a bad girl, but not 100 percent evil. Brainwave, Jr. is the guys who is going to be torn between right and wrong. We still don't know what really happened with Yolanda -- though I'm sure it was Cindy and not Henry who asked her to take a nude selfie. I think Henry probably thinks she sent it to someone else -- and they've never talked since to find out the truth.

  10. #865
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Most of the ISA kids seem like they might be on the fence between good or evil. I wonder what would happen if the new JSA takes out the ISA though and these kids (maybe next season) ban together to avenge their parents?

  11. #866
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Most of the ISA kids seem like they might be on the fence between good or evil. I wonder what would happen if the new JSA takes out the ISA though and these kids (maybe next season) ban together to avenge their parents?
    I can't see the whole ISA taken out, but I could see very well Icicle dying for his great plan.

  12. #867
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    I don't think that all of the ISA kids would go full out for revenge, maybe they'd get to the point where they'd have to decide who they were by themselves, that they'd have to stand apart from their parents just like the new JSA kids would have to do, make their own lives and such...maybe the ISA kids would view their parents as to controlling or view that all that the kids meant to their parents were them being just a means to an end, that the parents never actually loved them and would have thrown them under the bus at the first opportunity...

  13. #868
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    True. The way the producers decided to do it was make him more like the GA version, which is okay by me.
    GA Spectre was much better IMHO.
    Still powerful but not so ubber powered that there was no threat that could challenge him unless it was solar system level at least.

  14. #869
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post
    Fair enough, dont know why I said that unless it was because the GA Shade wasnt the same character. That being the case I appologise, it certsinly wasnt intended.

    I mean literally he had a completely different alter ego and no powers etc in his 3 golden age appearances. His first appearance in Flash 33 he literally only had a machine that controlled dust in the air to make it dark. Flash beat him by making a whirlwind and taling the dust outnof keystone city.

    The shade only appeared twice more before JLA in the 60s (innwhich he was reallynonly shown in team images of the villains and didnt show much).Then his next appearance I'm aware of was post crisis, the one where it was he who removed Keystone city from the post coie earth (about his 5th or maybe 6th appearance in comics, and he could casually remove a city from existence while the fiddler removed the memory of it from the general populous. Ive not seen him depicted below this level since and Ive never seen Dr Fate do anything on that level, not once). All so that the flash of two worlds story could remain in a world that didnt have two earths.

    I definitely wasnt refering to the pre coie Shade who wasnt even Richard Swift (the character we have had since Crisis) and who didnt have powers at all. The version of the GA doesnt resemble in any way ehat eenhave had since the Silver age.

    As for resetting things it doesn't actually apply to most of the villains the majority of the DC villains didn't make a great deal of appearances in the golden age (because heroes mostly fought normal criminals) the Wizard for example only appeared three times before the Bronze Age. He debuted in 1947 in all star comics 34 and appeared once more that year (All Star 37 IIRC, I'll have to find my copy)and again the next year also in All star (41 rings a bell)as a member of the ISA (those two issues 37,41 were the only pre bronze appearances of the ISA by the way)

    When he later appeared in JLA in the in the early 70s I think about 1973 (so the Bronze Age are after the silver age that you seem to claim the upgraded villains and was only his 4th appearance) he was able to pull the writer of JLA into the comic make him a villain with a spell who then went against the JLA for him and commited crimes that the ISA took the loot from. Said writer was casually reality manipulating to beat the JLA.

    The next appearance that he had would have been an all star comics Revival and then again in Jala where he casually transferred the souls of the Injustice Society with those of the Justice League. The result was that the wizard was in the body of Superman

    So pretty much from his fourth appearance onwards he wasn't far behind Doctor Fate. Throughout the entirety of his print since then he has actually been depicted around the same level no retcon or change to power levels.

    The fact is none of the iterstions of those handful of low powered appearances would apply in the comics to any reality that had a Courtney Whitmore and a Stargirl. All these alterations came well after that. The fact that shadow could grab and pull Dr Midnite in episode one confirmsnthisnisnt a shade with a machine making dust move to make it dark. I think that is pretty safe to say.

    So what I should have said is that shade has always been above Dr Fate in the current and relevant continuity. That is definintely true for the continuity that exists post crisis in the world that led to Stars and stripes comics (on which the show is based).
    Fine I have no idea what the current continuity is, like I said I lost track of DC’s reboots.

  15. #870
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regnak View Post


    Editing to add, certainly I would balance feats, BUT, because DC resets it continuity multiple times you can only really do so on one side of a reset. IOW golden and silver age feats can go together because the first reset is COIE. Then you can use feats from there to the next reset and so on. I lost count of their resets years ago.
    Just in reference to this part.
    Your stance here is contradictory.
    1. The only reset that is in anyway relevant to Stargorl and Stars and stripes is post COIE to flashpoint (of which I cant really speak, since all I got was Esrth 2 stuff and demon knights. The former I hated as it was crap. The latter I loved and DC folded the only Nu52 title I actually liked).

    2. The fact that you say you only balance feats on one side of a reset actually makes mybststement re Shade "always being above Fate" correct. The only version of Shade not above Post COIE Dr Fate is the one that made three appesrances pre Crisis. The one who had no powers, had the alter Identity of Crisp, not Richard Swift (until Robinson wrote the story that merged the two saying Crisp was a persona of Swift where he forgot who he was and his powers. Even to the point that when the person of Crisp took over modern shade he lost his powers).
    3. It also invalidates the "first 40 years" comment since those first 40 yesrs were the pre reset years and not valid to the character in the post reset.

    Its been clear that while many other things in Stargirl differ from the comics those aspects relating to Stars and Stripes series havent changed much at all. The continuity in relation to that iteration only refers to post crisis versions of Shade, Wizard, and Fiddler.

    Post crisis Shade is a trans character and has been since the late 80s.

    Post crisis Wizard wasnt reduced from bronze age level who could summon and command the writer from earth prime and control his world through same.

    Post crisis Fiddler hasnt reduced from his bronze age showings where he could use that fiddle to bring statues to life and control them. He literally fought several of the JSA in one JLA/JSA crossover with statues of polar bears, pterodactyl, kangaroos at a museum as well as created barriers with his fiddle that trapped Jay Garrick and Barry Allan in a field that altered its vibrational frequency to counter anything they did to escape.

    We don't know if this iteration of Fate has power on the level of Kent Nelson Original post COIE , Eric, Straus, Hector Hall or Kent V. We dont know if Alan has classic post COIE GL level, sentinel level, or starheart (I'd seriously doubt the last). Clearly stargirl thus far doesnt have the same. No CCB with enhanced strength, speed, healing. No light constructs or mental control of the cosmic rod. No thus far of the vast energy manio abillities of the shooting stars shutting down brains. Ted Grant had powers in tv he didnt in comics. The limitations are different on Hourman who could use his hour of power more than omce a day in the comics. He also seems weaker than comic Rick while stronger than Comic Rex.

    Based on actual showings and feats without plot contrivance to protect them there are many arguments that can be made for comic versions of these characters taking down the various comic versions of the JSA.

    What we saw of Shade in ep 1, is clearly post Crisis level Shade. Icicle is also well above his ice gun wielding comic self and more on his sons level. The fact that female fidler cant bring BW out of a coma but the team are convinced her husband could indicates he was also pretty close to post crisis comic level

    I have no idea what the current continuity is, like I said I lost track of DC’s reboots.
    I have no idea of current continuity either, nor shouldnit apply. I've only been applying post crisis pre Flashpoint continuity to anything relating to the show as that is all that should be relevant to a tv show based on thenStars and Stripes comic like this. The continuity from 1986 to 2009 and in that continuity these villains are powerful enough inncomics to take down comic heroes of the same era (an era in which Dr Fate btw, doesnt have feat anywhere near his Bronze age highs of fighting Topec, Vandeamon, etc)

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