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  1. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post
    No it wasn't.
    They specifically said Carles Mcnider had been active since the 40s. It was when Beth was going over his bio with Chuck (AI) when talking about Charles Mcnider it is confirmed by the goggles that he was active in the JSA from 1941

    https://youtu.be/Xsh9puKbxa0

    At 1 minute 58 "Chuck" shows Beth Charle's bio showingnhe was born in 1914 and was active in the JSA from 1941 to 2010 (when he died)
    Wait, didn't we have this discussion last season and you admitted reluctantly the JSA wasn't from WWII? I'll go through this thread later to see.

    EDIT: No, it was a different poster. Unless I'm mistaken, you're still under the erroneous assumption that the newspaper article was from the '40s, when it clearly wasn't.
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  2. #1682
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Wait, didn't we have this discussion last season and you admitted reluctantly the JSA wasn't from WWII? I'll go through this thread later to see.

    EDIT: No, it was a different poster. Unless I'm mistaken, you're still under the erroneous assumption that the newspaper article was from the '40s, when it clearly wasn't.
    No IIRC I admitted that Sylvester and Pat as Star Spangled Kid and Stripes were active in the 70s plus (as the first use of the police cars seen was as early as 1968 though not common until the late 70s mid 80s) and not the 40s as I originally thought. I had mistook the year the paper stared as its publication date (again IIRC).

    I KNEW all along that Dr Midnite was active from 1941 as that was indisputable since it was shown on screen. I thought that had also been discussed in this thread but I might be thinking about a thread on reddit.

    Of course the news paper story could have also been post the JSA rescuing the 7 soldiers from their time displaced adventure vs Nebula man if that happened in the TV shows continuity. It may not have of course, so likely the 7 soldiers are more like a second generation of heroes.

  3. #1683
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post
    No IIRC I admitted that Sylvester and Pat as Star Spangled Kid and Stripes were active in the 70s plus (as the first use of the police cars seen was as early as 1968 though not common until the late 70s mid 80s) and not the 40s as I originally thought. I had mistook the year the paper stared as its publication date (again IIRC).

    I KNEW all along that Dr Midnite was active from 1941 as that was indisputable since it was shown on screen. I thought that had also been discussed in this thread but I might be thinking about a thread on reddit.

    Of course the news paper story could have also been post the JSA rescuing the 7 soldiers from their time displaced adventure vs Nebula man if that happened in the TV shows continuity. It may not have of course, so likely the 7 soldiers are more like a second generation of heroes.
    Well, at least you're not claiming the car was from the '40s or '50s, because nothing like that was remotely around. Of course, it wasn't around in the '70s, either, but you can post a picture of one here if you would like to prove me wrong.
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  4. #1684
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    The one thing that's very clear to me is that the show is (intentionally) not very clear about when the original J.S.A. existed. If all these clues in the show were supposed to inform us on the precise timeframe, then someone goofed--because there's mixed messages. The way T.V. works, if they really want the audience to know something--they will make it very clear, to the point of knocking you over the head with redundant information.

    The question I have is why they want to muddy the waters. Is it that they don't know yet and want to keep their options open? Is there some in story reason for all these conflicting anachronisms? Or do they just think it's funny and there's no deep logic to it--they just do it because they get their kicks messing with the audience?
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  5. #1685
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The one thing that's very clear to me is that the show is (intentionally) not very clear about when the original J.S.A. existed. If all these clues in the show were supposed to inform us on the precise timeframe, then someone goofed--because there's mixed messages. The way T.V. works, if they really want the audience to know something--they will make it very clear, to the point of knocking you over the head with redundant information.

    The question I have is why they want to muddy the waters. Is it that they don't know yet and want to keep their options open? Is there some in story reason for all these conflicting anachronisms? Or do they just think it's funny and there's no deep logic to it--they just do it because they get their kicks messing with the audience?
    IMO, they're trolling CB fans of the JSA, but we'll see. BTW, some people have mentioned a B&W film of a prize fight of Ted Grant as proof it was from the '40s. Didn't Smallville have B&W television reports of the JSA being arrested, despite the fact they were unquestionably from the '70s (when everything new was in color)? Some of these guys are still stuck in the past creatively.
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  6. #1686
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    Well, there's a certain aesthetic, like in the Burton Batman movies and in the animated series, which is akin to steam punk--in which modern settings are mashed-up with artifacts of the past. But I don't think it's that, because the art direction would be more deliberate if it was that thought out.
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  7. #1687
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The one thing that's very clear to me is that the show is (intentionally) not very clear about when the original J.S.A. existed. If all these clues in the show were supposed to inform us on the precise timeframe, then someone goofed--because there's mixed messages. The way T.V. works, if they really want the audience to know something--they will make it very clear, to the point of knocking you over the head with redundant information.

    The question I have is why they want to muddy the waters. Is it that they don't know yet and want to keep their options open? Is there some in story reason for all these conflicting anachronisms? Or do they just think it's funny and there's no deep logic to it--they just do it because they get their kicks messing with the audience?
    I disagree completely, because there isn't a mixed message when you realise that the inconsistencies are about characters who joined the team much later in the comics.

    There is only one reference to the start or beginning of the JSA and that is the one where the Dr Midnite AI shows Charles Mcnider's bio. The only other reference to the teams time line is their demise in 2010 which was confirmed by the bio.

    All other historic references are to JSAers who weren't original or early members of the team. In the comics Wildcat was only first referred to as a working alongside the JSA (Not a member) at the end of the GA. He made a guest appearance in issue 24 in 1945 (same issue the original Mr Terrific joined the team) and also guest appeared in the last 2 issues of 45. He was finally an official member in the JLA Cross overs of the 60s.

    SSK (Sylvester) didn't join the JSA in the comics until All Star comics were revived in 1976.

    References to Sylvester in his youth and Ted Grant as a boxer don't have to reflect the time the JSA started because they weren't a part of the JSA at that time. In the comics Dr Midnite didn't join until 1941 but the team started in 40. Midnite joined after GL left from getting his own self titled non-anthology (same reason Jay Garrick left when All- Flash came out and was replaced by Johnny Thunder) and hourman left due to declining popularity (which was why Ted Knight Starman joined at the same time).

    So them being vague has more to do with the fact that their time of joining innthe comics was vague, it happened between publications. They weren't a member here but were next time they were published. If anything it's actually consistent for that reason.

    On the wiki for the show https://stargirl.fandom.com/wiki/Jus...ety_of_America

    It says the JSA started in 41 with Midnite. It refers to Pat and Syl as 90's heroes. It says that Wildcat and Hourman joined the team at a later date (presumably to have it consistent with Rex being young enough to have a teenage son in 2020) etc completely in line with these 'inconsistemcies" and mixed messages.

  8. #1688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Well, there's a certain aesthetic, like in the Burton Batman movies and in the animated series, which is akin to steam punk--in which modern settings are mashed-up with artifacts of the past. But I don't think it's that, because the art direction would be more deliberate if it was that thought out.
    Right, but how much of it is aesthetic and not just nostalgia instead? Not that it doesn't work - it did with the works you mentioned - but I have never understood, for instance, making non-color films of period pieces set before the '60s. I even have noticed what some directors having doing with movies/ TV shows about the '70s regarding colors, tint, etc. - they tend to look like the movies of my childhood instead of what it actually looked back then.
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  9. #1689
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post
    I disagree completely, because there isn't a mixed message when you realise that the inconsistencies are about characters who joined the team much later in the comics.

    There is only one reference to the start or beginning of the JSA and that is the one where the Dr Midnite AI shows Charles Mcnider's bio. The only other reference to the teams time line is their demise in 2010 which was confirmed by the bio.

    All other historic references are to JSAers who weren't original or early members of the team. In the comics Wildcat was only first referred to as a working alongside the JSA (Not a member) at the end of the GA. He made a guest appearance in issue 24 in 1945 (same issue the original Mr Terrific joined the team) and also guest appeared in the last 2 issues of 45. He was finally an official member in the JLA Cross overs of the 60s.

    SSK (Sylvester) didn't join the JSA in the comics until All Star comics were revived in 1976.

    References to Sylvester in his youth and Ted Grant as a boxer don't have to reflect the time the JSA started because they weren't a part of the JSA at that time. In the comics Dr Midnite didn't join until 1941 but the team started in 40. Midnite joined after GL left from getting his own self titled non-anthology (same reason Jay Garrick left when All- Flash came out and was replaced by Johnny Thunder) and hourman left due to declining popularity (which was why Ted Knight Starman joined at the same time).

    So them being vague has more to do with the fact that their time of joining innthe comics was vague, it happened between publications. They weren't a member here but were next time they were published. If anything it's actually consistent for that reason.

    On the wiki for the show https://stargirl.fandom.com/wiki/Jus...ety_of_America

    It says the JSA started in 41 with Midnite. It refers to Pat and Syl as 90's heroes. It says that Wildcat and Hourman joined the team at a later date (presumably to have it consistent with Rex being young enough to have a teenage son in 2020) etc completely in line with these 'inconsistemcies" and mixed messages.
    If you look at that page you're referring to, not everybody is buying the JSA formed in the '40s in the replies.
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  10. #1690
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    If you look at that page you're referring to, not everybody is buying the JSA formed in the '40s in the replies.
    Doesn't change the fact that it is one of only 4 things we have a confirmed time frame of from the show.

    Birth of Mcnider 1914
    Date of Mcnider active in JSA 1941 to 2010
    Death of OG JSA 2010
    Death of Hourman 2012

    Everything else is only vague inferences, of time differences that don't affect the confirmed dates. Syl and Pat as 90's heroes is perfectly fine since Syl wasn't an early member of the team. Neither was Wildcat.

    Why would we ignore the only confirmed dates in the show? We certainly haven't for the deathbof the JSA. More likely that those who don't believe simply didn't see what the AI Show it. When I first saw that episode I didn't pick up on it. It wasn't until I watched a YouTube video that slowed down and paused that point and showed the reference.

    Bottom line, it's an indisputable fact confirmed on-screen that Mcnider was active in the JSAninb1941 and born in 1914, just like its indisputable about the time the JSA died. That doesn't mean that all JSA members were activenthen, just him. It may well be that in the shows continuity he was the only OG member still active in the 90s to 2010. Maybe when he started it was with the likes of Atom and others we didn't see referenced because they had Kong retired. But it's still a confirmed fact that at least he was an active JSAer in 41

    *edit*
    The wiki didn't say 1940 (which was when the comic JSA started) but 1941 because that was the only confirmed active date of a JSAer from the show
    Last edited by beatboks; 08-01-2021 at 01:46 PM.

  11. #1691
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    Quote Originally Posted by beatboks View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that it is one of only 4 things we have a confirmed time frame of from the show.

    Birth of Mcnider 1914
    Date of Mcnider active in JSA 1941 to 2010
    Death of OG JSA 2010
    Death of Hourman 2012

    Everything else is only vague inferences, of time differences that don't affect the confirmed dates. Syl and Pat as 90's heroes is perfectly fine since Syl wasn't an early member of the team. Neither was Wildcat.

    Why would we ignore the only confirmed dates in the show? We certainly haven't for the deathbof the JSA. More likely that those who don't believe simply didn't see what the AI Show it. When I first saw that episode I didn't pick up on it. It wasn't until I watched a YouTube video that slowed down and paused that point and showed the reference.

    Bottom line, it's an indisputable fact confirmed on-screen that Mcnider was active in the JSAninb1941 and born in 1914, just like its indisputable about the time the JSA died. That doesn't mean that all JSA members were activenthen, just him. It may well be that in the shows continuity he was the only OG member still active in the 90s to 2010. Maybe when he started it was with the likes of Atom and others we didn't see referenced because they had Kong retired. But it's still a confirmed fact that at least he was an active JSAer in 41

    *edit*
    The wiki didn't say 1940 (which was when the comic JSA started) but 1941 because that was the only confirmed active date of a JSAer from the show
    Beat, the JSA was murdered, what, a decade ago? Now unless they were given some miracle elixir or time travel was involved (neither one hinted at on the show, FWIW), that would mean they weren't anywhere near the WWI generation's age or even my parents'. In fact, they would be closer to mine instead. Therefore, the 1941 date can't be correct.

    Also, why is the ISA not old? What evidence do you have for their relative youthfulness (evidence, mind you, not speculation)?
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  12. #1692
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    Have not had much time as of late (because I work a ton) to read this whole thread. I will say this...I love this show. Me and my 8 year old daughter do not have much in common these days but she fell in love with this show. After we watched the whole series together my daughter had so many questions about Stargirl and the JSA. I was blown away by her questions. She wanted to know everything. So I brought her to my pull box of JSA comics. She read them all. We both cant wait for it to start season 2.
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  13. #1693
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Beat, the JSA was murdered, what, a decade ago? Now unless they were given some miracle elixir or time travel was involved (neither one hinted at on the show, FWIW), that would mean they weren't anywhere near the WWI generation's age or even my parents'. In fact, they would be closer to mine instead. Therefore, the 1941 date can't be correct.

    Also, why is the ISA not old? What evidence do you have for their relative youthfulness (evidence, mind you, not speculation)?
    1. Your applying real world time logic to a comic based program where the source material defies said logic.
    2. The very comic mcguffins of absorbing time from Ian Karkull and fighting in tikendisppace ragnorak might as easily play here.
    3. I'm only saying that Dr Midnitr of the JSA is from the 40s because it is confirmed in story/on screen and not contradicted at all after it. The very Wiki I linked says that Wildcat Hourman etc were later members of the JSA. There is nothing presented anywhere through the first season to date the membership of anyone else. It's literally why I said he may have been with an OG team that were all gone long before the end of the team in 2010.

    Fact his membership innthe JSA was confirmed innthe team in 1941. That is non contestable until something contradicts it. That doesn't mean anyone else was though it would be pretty easy to make Dr Fate, GL, and Johnny Thunder with their magic of that age.

    In the comics the JSA had existed for that length of time (up until 2011) but only a few members were actually continuously active for the entirety. Jay (his speed altering his respective time), Alan (magical energy that determines his own form for the last few decades) and Hawkman (who got re-incarnated). WC wasn't a member until the 60s and likely since he clearly doesn't have the magic 9 lives that reset every 24 hrs must be latter here).

    Now in the show maybe Midnite was the only OG member when the team was killed maybe not. The simply fact is indesputable until contradicted by contrary data that since he was active in the JSA in 41 there was a JSA then. Maybe in this verse that JSA was Sloane, Pratt, Hawkman, Midnite and Fate or Johnny, and all thenothers were a later generation. But you can't say the JSA wasn't around innthe 40s when we have a confirmed fact that Mcnider was. It's not like Mcnider did much in that battle. He was (according to the wiki) team leader maybe he only operated as the brains and planner.

    My guess Ted Grant was maybe part of Gen 2 from the late 60s (to explain the B&W boxing footage- there were still some B&W shows then just not many) Rex Tyler was likely Gen 3 (maybe 80s), Syl and Pat joined in the late 90s early 00's. Fate could have been an OG due to Kent not aging, I'd say Jay and Alan were a later Gen also (since we know who's getting cast as Jay and Alan has to be young.enough to father Jade). This could be how they cover the members we haven't seen mentioned as the show goes on.

    I'm not saying any other character shown in the battle in 2010 was around in 41, because we don't know. Clearly theblikes of Icicle, Sportsmater, etc weren't either. We only know that Dragon King was, Shade probably was and Grundy could have been also. There are plenty of JSA enemies in the comics that weren't around in the 40s. That doesn't make them not JSA enemies. Hell most of those they fight in the modern era weren't around in the 40s
    Last edited by beatboks; 08-02-2021 at 06:42 AM.

  14. #1694
    Fantastic Member beatboks's Avatar
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    I'd also point out that if it was a team of young villains going up against a team of a fewnold men, a number of middle aged heroes and a couple of younger recruits it makes the defeat of the JSA much more believable. I mean most who complain about it ignore the fact that Shadenis every bit as powerful a Fate, BW is every bit as powerful as Alan and Fiddler's magic fiddle every bit as powerful as Thunderbolt. Still the rest of the ISA falls short in the power depth. So having a much more youthful vigor would explain why only the younger Hourman and Starman were still standing

  15. #1695
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    When Pat says "So, Courtney, the JSA were involved in the same type of hibernation experiment I did in that Idiocracy movie I made a while back, so that's why they were still around in this century fairly young," then I'll cheerfully exclaim their WWII roots. Otherwise, I believe it's wishful thinking on your part.
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