Page 144 of 187 FirstFirst ... 4494134140141142143144145146147148154 ... LastLast
Results 2,146 to 2,160 of 2791
  1. #2146
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,047

    Default

    So Bruce Gordon found Eclipso, used its power to gain more fame and fortune, only to eventually regret the emotional toll it would take on him and Eclipso's victims, but he still gave in when Eclipso promised to get him back the love of his life. I'm not saying the guy deserved to get killed (presumably in cold blood), and Eclipso clearly was manipulating him and he had no idea what he was bringing back...but he still gave in to what Eclipso wanted.

    I sometimes forget Barbara and Beth's dad work at the same place. We never really see it come up with their daughters.

    Jeez, Sylvester treated Pat with barely any respect. It didn't seem like the rest of the JSA aside from Jay or Johnny were all that better, only seeing him as the mechanic or carry-on that was a packaged deal with Sylvester. He basically forced Pat to drive him to kill Bruce Gordon, using him as a getaway driver even though Pat wanted nothing to do with it, and wouldn't do much more to talk about what happened other than saying Pat was right. But Starman still killed the guy.

    Pat saying "Flash" with such giddy was the perfect way to greet John Wesley Shipp showing up as Jay Garrick. I'm glad the show was able to fit him in so we could finally get Jay with the JSA in live-action, and this was quintessential Jay Garrick. Of course he wouldn't go through with executing Gordon to the bitter end, and he treated Pat the best .

    Sylvester staring at his old Star-Spangled Kid costume, only to end up losing that heroic innocence and idealism he once had as a kid .

    My only disappointment is they had John Wesley Shipp as Jay Garrick in the episode but never had him share any scenes with his old rival, The Shade.

    Poor Charles McNider. Loses his daughter, his wife is barely holding it together...although I was kind of surprised he didn't have much to do with taking Eclipso out.

    Barbara gets haunted by the ghost of Icicle only to be saved by the spectral presence of the Shade. I'm guessing that name he mentioned was his sister.

    I can't say for sure how Cameron would react if he found out the truth about his dad and the Whitmore's involvement in it, but I don't think the real Cameron would throw the biological mom card at Mike and then kill a dog.

    Just casually mentioning how powerful Eclipso is when not even Green Lantern, Dr. Fate, or The Spectre were able to do anything to him. Yeah, a JSA with just Stargirl and Dr. Mid-Nite don't stand a chance.

    So Ted Grant mentions his son (who I assume is Tom Bronson) and Sylvester mentions having family, although I guess this would've been before Brainwave killed his sister. Pat never mentioned Ted having a kid though.

    Starman killing Bruce Gordon basically fractured the JSA and broke the team. They only re-formed when they had to take on the newly-resurgent ISA, but they weren't able to function as well as a team anymore which is part of why the ISA was able to take them out.

    Eclipso was trying to tear Courtney's family apart and Pat revealing the truth to Courtney and that Barbara knew did that in spades. And all that little Bruce is left to do is revel in the conflict.

  2. #2147
    Pro Mutant Anarchist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    4,683

    Default

    Could the JSA's treatment of Pat been any shittier? Jesus.

    I wonder how long that rift in Courtney's family will take to heal.....pretty damn dark stuff, once more.

  3. #2148
    Incredible Member beatboks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    569

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobinGA View Post
    It was an interesting episode. The larger theme was Eclipso probing the Dugan family.
    Each of them, except for Courtney, was having to face various demons.

    There were large flashbacks to the JSA. In which they dealt with a potential threat.
    I suppose the problem for me was the vote scene. If they were really tied, didn't
    think of Pat as a true member, then why did he get to cast the fifth vote? I mean it
    was 3-1 among the JSA.

    I also wonder about the whole "no kill" rule of the JSA, the notion that they have supposedly
    crossed a line here. An event they found so disturbing that they were unable to be together, until
    they joined together again only to be killed off.

    I suppose you could argue that the DCEU operates in a slightly different universe, so the rules
    are different here. But there was that whole range of experiences they had during World War II.
    Where many of them went on missions that led to the deaths of Axis soldiers. Did all these stories
    published in DC Comics from the Golden Age never really happen here? Did what we read about in
    All Star Squadron and Young All Stars never take place either? I mean Roy Thomas wrote Japanese-American
    internment in such a way that there were people who felt very conflicted, but were inclined to go
    along with the government. Then you have the initial breakup of the organization being due to McCarthyism.

    The point is that based on the comics at least this wasn't the JSA's first ethical, moral rodeo. It just rang
    hollow to me. Now I suppose if you want to say that well the JSA in the DCEU never really wrestled with those
    issues, I guess you can buy that. But then I would like to know, just out of my own curiosity, what exactly their
    history looks like here.

    My own head canon if you will is that the JSA who fought during World War II were tough minded people who were
    willing to do what was necessary, even kill. It's the Nazi's, the Japanese empire or us, kind of thing. That doesn't mean
    that they are people bumping off every supervillain they arrest. They do have a moral code, but it can be bent. That at
    least can be reconciled with their history. But I know others will probably feel differently.

    I have enjoyed Wildcat as well a major league jerk (I'd use stronger language, but well don't want to shock anyone). Because that is how I have always seen Ted Grant, as at best
    the lovable curmudgeon, but someone who has some misogyny at least based on his interactions with Power Girl. The
    Star Spangled Kid and Stripesy relationship was also described in a very interesting kind of way. Sylvester could be pretty
    tough with Pat, almost the aristocrat ordering around the hired help. But then they still love and care for one another, even
    when Pat disagrees with his decisions.
    The JSA innthe comics weren't cold and didn't kill. The no kill rule was very much a thing. In fact it was the plot point on many a story. It was in fact the reason why I hated Guggenhiem's history of the JsA and Jay being willing to kill the baby back in the golden age.

    You mentioned All Star Squadron so let's just look at that.
    1. In All Star Squadron 19 and 20 when in Brainwave's brain projected world it was the killing of imagination created beings that brought the JSA down. When Alan thought he had caused the devastation of Hiroshima he was going to turn his ring on himself and take his own life.

    In the story where Shazam came across from earth S and was controlled by the spear he too even under Hitler's control only destroyed the planes and let the pilots parachute to safety. Pn page 12 of issue 36 of that very story when instructed to destroy even mind controlled Capt Marvel questions the order and says he doesn't kill and when Hitler pushes the issue he stutters in response.

    Another Story by the same writer in Infinity Inc used the very same plot point as a means to destroy and disband the JSA. Ultra's plan innthe generations saga was that once the stream of ruthlessness wore off the guilt of the JSA having killed would make them give up and disband.

    The very plot you question has been used for the same effect in the comics many times. Commissioner Bruce Wayne turned against the JSA in the silver age revised all starnissues because Psycho pirate had made him believe the JSA had killed.

    Far from being hard to believe it actually sits well with how the JSA were depicted in the comics. Also for the record killing an innocent and killing an enemy combatant soldier are far from the same moral debate. Especially when you know that innocent is possessed and not in control of their actions

    Ohh re the whole 3-1 thing, I suspect Jay was expecting a 3-1 vote bit thought Strpsey migh spark Starmans conscience and turn it back. Hense he suggested getting Pat " in case" it was a tied vote
    Last edited by beatboks; 10-06-2021 at 05:52 AM.

  4. #2149
    www.taurianfilms.com KabutoRyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,601

    Default

    Another great episode. I wonder if Courtney gets whammied next. Saving the leader for last.

    Eclipso's actions led to the destruction of the OG team and the teen team. Love that.

    My only knock is not enough OG JSA actually JSA-ing, but still was great to see them and of course John Wesley Shipp.

    And another reason to love this show...people were complaining about the JSA getting taken out so easily by the ISA in the first season, but now we see why. They were a fractured team that had split up and were pulled together by the ISA after who knows how long and who knows how much heroing they did solo and then not working together as a coordinated team they got picked apart. I totally buy that and makes me fine with the first episode slaughter.

    Makes me wonder how things are resolved in the end...do they find some way to rise above the need to murder the host or will perhaps Shade take Eclipso into himself and take his own life to ends the threat.

    Also I wonder if we will get a payoff for why exactly Pat stays with the JSA as they just seem to be dicks to him. I like to think there are other times we have not seen yet where they are cordial and friendly to him but the flashbacks just have them (mostly Sly yes) being dicks to him or just seeing him as below them. So why does he stick around. Who does he hope to be/gain...?

    Last edited by KabutoRyder; 10-06-2021 at 01:36 PM.
    Geek / Gamer / Filmmaker / Indy Pro Wrestler
    @SebastionEnvi (Twitter/Instagram)
    youtube.com/SkunkLifeMedia

  5. #2150
    Ultimate Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    12,558

    Default

    I do have to wonder though, has it been clarified if Pat went into action alongside Starman?

    Because bullets don't really care if you call yourself a 'sidekick'.

  6. #2151
    www.taurianfilms.com KabutoRyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I do have to wonder though, has it been clarified if Pat went into action alongside Starman?

    Because bullets don't really care if you call yourself a 'sidekick'.
    I think it can be inferred that he stayed in the car and just kept the motor running while twiddling his thumbs.
    Geek / Gamer / Filmmaker / Indy Pro Wrestler
    @SebastionEnvi (Twitter/Instagram)
    youtube.com/SkunkLifeMedia

  7. #2152
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,047

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KabutoRyder View Post
    Another great episode. I wonder if Courtney gets whammied next. Saving the leader for last.
    I think this was basically Eclipso going after Courtney by targeting her family since he doesn't think he can hit her directly.
    Makes me wonder how things are resolved in the end...do they find some way to rise above the need to murder the host or will perhaps Shade take Eclipso into himself and take his own life to ends the threat.
    Eclipso doesn't even have a host right now, so unless they can find a way to re-forge the Black Diamond and have someone pull the sacrifice play to be host to Eclipso...
    Also I wonder if we will get a payoff for why exactly Pat stays with the JSA as they just seem to be dicks to him. I like to think there are other times we have not seen yet where they are cordial and friendly to him but the flashbacks just have them (mostly Sly yes) being dicks to him or just seeing him as below them. So why does he stick around. Who does he hope to be/gain...?
    I think it was a mix of hero worship and that he basically went wherever Sylvester did. Nobody looked up to or believed in the JSA and what they stood for more than Pat did. Heck, even Pat had more faith in Sylvester than Sylvester did in himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    I do have to wonder though, has it been clarified if Pat went into action alongside Starman?

    Because bullets don't really care if you call yourself a 'sidekick'.
    I think he was probably less active with Sylvester in the field once he became Starman and joined up with the JSA compared to when Sylvester was Star-Spangled Kid and Pat was basically his adult chaperone.

    I guess that could be one reason why Sylvester treats Pat the way he did. He felt like he outgrew having Pat around but on some level he still needed Pat to humanize him.

  8. #2153
    www.taurianfilms.com KabutoRyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,601

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    I guess that could be one reason why Sylvester treats Pat the way he did. He felt like he outgrew having Pat around but on some level he still needed Pat to humanize him.
    Id love for this to get some exploration.

    Heck you have that, you have Pat's feelings where he was responsible and looked out for this kid who is a young man, then a man, with a family apparently, so again it goes back to what exactly does Pat want/need to hang around, how does he adjust with being so needed in Sly's youth hero years to just...not being needed now (or then rather)....
    Geek / Gamer / Filmmaker / Indy Pro Wrestler
    @SebastionEnvi (Twitter/Instagram)
    youtube.com/SkunkLifeMedia

  9. #2154
    Ultimate Member j9ac9k's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12,009

    Default

    Why did Starman even need a driver when he can fly?

  10. #2155
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,047

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Why did Starman even need a driver when he can fly?
    Maybe he didn't do it as much as Courtney did. Or he didn't want to seem conspicuous when they went out to kill Bruce Gordon.

  11. #2156
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Bronx, New York
    Posts
    13,941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    Eclipso doesn't even have a host right now, so unless they can find a way to re-forge the Black Diamond and have someone pull the sacrifice play to be host to Eclipso...
    Could Grundy be a host for Eclipso? If he can they can make use of the fact he can resurrect himself to side step the moral dilemma of killing.

  12. #2157
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    115,047

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Could Grundy be a host for Eclipso? If he can they can make use of the fact he can resurrect himself to side step the moral dilemma of killing.
    I wonder if Eclispo can even infect a zombie.

  13. #2158
    www.taurianfilms.com KabutoRyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,601

    Default

    To Frontier's point, Pat does have the diamond pieces so maybe all it would take is the Shade using his power to....'push' the pieces together and then it'd reform on its own.
    Geek / Gamer / Filmmaker / Indy Pro Wrestler
    @SebastionEnvi (Twitter/Instagram)
    youtube.com/SkunkLifeMedia

  14. #2159
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,336

    Default

    About the JSA and killing in WWII - Spectre sunk a German invasion fleet in the English channel, IIRC. Don't remember anyone saving those thousands of sailors.

  15. #2160
    Extraordinary Member Captain Craig's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Posts
    5,937

    Default

    Solid episode...except the part where the JSA members are real jerks to Pat. Maybe it was the emotions of what they were debating? The emotions over the death of a colleagues 10yr old daughter but wow!

    I could've stood a 15-30sec flashback scene of the JSA in action with Jay present.

    The "less is more" approach to the death of Gordon. Two blood drips on the Starman costume vs Sylvester walking out with blood smears about his costume.

    So Shade is really still in recovery mode from the throw down at the school it seems? He took a beating and I feel that was reinforced based on what Sylvester told Pat after their graveside "behind a tree" chat.
    Shade is scared of Eclipso, so him wanting to possess the box that held the diamond makes even more sense. He wanted to be able to make sure it was never possible to unleash Eclipso. Probably dump the box in the 'shadow realm'.

    Speaking of "less is more" that is exactly what the writers are doing with Eclipso. He is even more scary when he only unleashes after some buildup. The school cafeteria fight was, what, episode 6? So five episodes of build up. Meaning we will probably get a two part-ish type of finale. Eclipso begins to unleash in ep12 to carry over into ep13?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I think the thing wasn't that it wasn't killing someone in battle or self defense. They had to murder Bruce Gordon.
    I think you nailed it.
    "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •