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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Default In what way is Krakoa like a cult?

    I see the comparison all over the place, and I want an explanation. Is it all the implied sex, trading partners, and the "make more mutants" literally being one of the big rules? Is it the "my way or the highway" speeches? Is it all the supervillains present? Is it that when they're resurrected, they're buck naked in front of a crowd while Storm makes a ritualized speech? Or am I missing something?

  2. #2
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    I personally don't see any cult like behavior. When i think of cult though i don't necessarily think their practices i think how they limit the freedoms such as movements and thought of an individual person for they perceive to be the collective primary thought that is usually coming from one main individual. I don't see that in mutants because most mutants just want a safe peaceful place to live and not be murdered which to me is a lot different than a personal view of one person being turned into some sort of way of life for the supposed many but it's really the vision of how the one thinks things should be.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  3. #3

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    I'd say it comes from the religious-like language more than anything. That is, the glorification of Krakoa as if it's a godly figure, beyond just gratitude of safety as well as such ceremonies as was presented by Storm in HOX/POX. Additionally, because we haven't seen much opposition or even minor questioning attitudes outside of Fallen Angels, it gives a very...odd vibe. There's little justification for the unification of all mutants other than "Charles and Moira said so." Plus, as you mentioned, the ritualised manner of the resurrection given by Storm and the constant reverie of "The five" as if they're god-like figures can be unsettling.

    From my perspective, having been at the abusive end of religious treatment, it isn't encouraging. It doesn't promote freedom or liberation in the sense that it seems to be promoting the idea of: this is the divine path. This is the right way. Plus, when you have Magneto declaring himself a god amongst all humanity...well...it's hard not to view it in a rather supremacist or, perhaps, zealous light.

    I suppose it depends on your experience with religious groups or attitudes, really.

    But yeah; the presentation of the rituals and overall religious themes/language is the main contributing factor here, to be honest.

    Plus, I suppose that, yeah with those factors in mind the "my way or the highway" speeches do sort of contribute to that. I first got cult-ish vibes in HOX #1 where Scott referred to the mutant collective as his "Family" and then proceeded to tell the FF that Franklin also shared such "Family" on Krakoa. That's the kind of language that does in fact get used in cults sometimes...so...yeah...that too.
    Last edited by Domino_Dare-Doll; 12-07-2019 at 07:42 PM.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I personally don't see any cult like behavior. When i think of cult though i don't necessarily think their practices i think how they limit the freedoms such as movements and thought of an individual person for they perceive to be the collective primary thought that is usually coming from one main individual. I don't see that in mutants because most mutants just want a safe peaceful place to live and not be murdered which to me is a lot different than a personal view of one person being turned into some sort of way of life for the supposed many but it's really the vision of how the one thinks things should be.
    I'm kind of seeing that, though, from what being presented on panel? Not as in, other characters are necessarily limiting others but just in that there's only really one outlook here: that Krakoa is joy and good and blessed and that anyone who questions it, such as Kwannon, should be encouraged not to? I totally understand the mutants needing a safe place to live and grow, but it's the lack of more vocal opposition or even variance that's troubling, I find?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I'm kind of seeing that, though, from what being presented on panel? Not as in, other characters are necessarily limiting others but just in that there's only really one outlook here: that Krakoa is joy and good and blessed and that anyone who questions it, such as Kwannon, should be encouraged not to? I totally understand the mutants needing a safe place to live and grow, but it's the lack of more vocal opposition or even variance that's troubling, I find?
    But that is more how the writers are handling it than the individual mutants imo. I feel any writer could use any mutant and voice there personal doubts such as was done with the characters in Fallen Angel and their views made sense and they had a semblance of freedom to explore their personal views. If a character has an opposition nothing is stopping them from voicing it and there is no penalty if they do. The writers just haven't voiced many mutants having a different opinion which makes sense to me. Especially since if you look at the timelines in POX and HOX mutants are coming off one of the darkest few years in their history so i wouldn't be surprised if there is more dissent later when the dust starts to settle and things normalize and Krakoa presents its own unique issues but im not surprised most on the same pages right now.
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  6. #6
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Well, there's the psuedo religious tone to everything. Magneto's god speeches, Xavier calling 'sacred land', and Apocalypses' 'come home to us' talk with Rictor. The rituals surrounding resurrection, especially Storm's speech had very religious vibes. There hasn't been much, if any, dissent, so everyone is speaking in one voice. Krakoa is said to be 'the one, only way' and everyone must follow it. We're being told over and over again that people are finally happy, but not really shown how or why. Even the parties we keep seeing are a standard cult thing, using sex, drugs and alcohol to keep being inebriated and compliant.

    Generally speaking, cults operate with a small number of charismatic people exploiting downtrodden and vulnerable people by offering them promises of safety and happiness. Follow me and become a member of my family, and you will never be alone again. That kind of thing. Then, once those people start following the leader, they are encouraged to cut ties with outside influences, and stop talking to old friends and family. This makes them more dependent on the 'family' or whatever the cult calls itself. Drugs and alcohol are often used to keep people compliant and suggestible, while encouraging dependency.

    Does that make sense?

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member Wiccan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I see the comparison all over the place, and I want an explanation. Is it all the implied sex, trading partners, and the "make more mutants" literally being one of the big rules? Is it the "my way or the highway" speeches? Is it all the supervillains present? Is it that when they're resurrected, they're buck naked in front of a crowd while Storm makes a ritualized speech? Or am I missing something?
    They don't usually get naked in front of an audience or with a speech by Storm or anyone else. That was a special occasion as those were the X-Men who died stopping Orchis.
    Last edited by Wiccan; 12-07-2019 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    But that is more how the writers are handling it than the individual mutants imo. I feel any writer could use any mutant and voice there personal doubts such as was done with the characters in Fallen Angel and their views made sense and they had a semblance of freedom to explore their personal views. If a character has an opposition nothing is stopping them from voicing it and there is no penalty if they do. The writers just haven't voiced many mutants having a different opinion which makes sense to me. Especially since if you look at the timelines in POX and HOX mutants are coming off one of the darkest few years in their history so i wouldn't be surprised if there is more dissent later when the dust starts to settle and things normalize and Krakoa presents its own unique issues but im not surprised most on the same pages right now.
    I guess so? But then, Kwannon's statement to Cable of how "The more we leave the more Krakoa turns against us" is kind of...? Ya know?

    I mean, ok, Krakoa is a safe place. I understand that; I'm not actually expecting any dissent from anyone in that regard. But I am curious as to why so much trust is being put in Charles Xavier, master manipulator supreme and Magneto. Every character on there has just cause to turn around and say "Hang on, why should I trust you?" and yet they haven't. Scott's had his memories messed with, Jean's had her memories suppressed, Storm was lied to about her godly heritage and so on; there surely should have been some reservation on panel as to why, suddenly, this direction was right other than "Because Moira showed me this." Like even a telepathic download from Xavier at this point, in that context could be questionable?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    They don't usually get naked in front of an audience or with a speech by Storm or anywhere else. That was a special occasion as those were the X-Men who died stopping Orchis.
    And even then, past revivals haven't been met with such ceremony.

  10. #10
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Plus they just ended Uncanny with the revelation that Emma Frost was mind controlling half the X-men into taking out her enemies for her, while X-man had them all in a fantasy based around psuedo religious worship of himself and mutantkind. Its kind of odd they'd be so gung-ho about this so quickly.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiccan View Post
    They don't usually get naked in front of an audience or with a speech by Storm or anyone else. That was a special occasion as those were the X-Men who died stopping Orchis.
    Why would they get special treatment over anyone else?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    I guess so? But then, Kwannon's statement to Cable of how "The more we leave the more Krakoa turns against us" is kind of...? Ya know?

    I mean, ok, Krakoa is a safe place. I understand that; I'm not actually expecting any dissent from anyone in that regard. But I am curious as to why so much trust is being put in Charles Xavier, master manipulator supreme and Magneto. Every character on there has just cause to turn around and say "Hang on, why should I trust you?" and yet they haven't. Scott's had his memories messed with, Jean's had her memories suppressed, Storm was lied to about her godly heritage and so on; there surely should have been some reservation on panel as to why, suddenly, this direction was right other than "Because Moira showed me this." Like even a telepathic download from Xavier at this point, in that context could be questionable?
    But if they are being mentallly controlled to me that definitely isn't a cult. I think of a cult as people willfully buying into the vision of someone elses view and bending themselves to fit that. That is what is so dangerous about it imo. People willingly turning against the logic of a situation for what they deem as what i can only imagine is a personal safety that is rational to them.

    Nothing in the story to me suggests they are being manipulated but i don't think cultist usually manipulate rather than sell you their vision. I don't see cult here.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  13. #13
    Incredible Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    LordUltimus

    Did my explanation at least make sense? I don't want to get into 'its a cult! They're all mind controlled/drugged out of their minds!' again, but I am happy to explain why people are getting that vibe

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    LordUltimus

    Did my explanation at least make sense? I don't want to get into 'its a cult! They're all mind controlled/drugged out of their minds!' again, but I am happy to explain why people are getting that vibe
    It did, thanks.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    But if they are being mentallly controlled to me that definitely isn't a cult. I think of a cult as people willfully buying into the vision of someone elses view and bending themselves to fit that. That is what is so dangerous about it imo. People willingly turning against the logic of a situation for what they deem as what i can only imagine is a personal safety that is rational to them.

    Nothing in the story to me suggests they are being manipulated but i don't think cultist usually manipulate rather than sell you their vision. I don't see cult here.
    I agree and disagree?

    I mean, I think if you're being mentally controlled, that's a step up from a cult into a super cult. Like; the basic definition of a cult is to follow one ideology and/or person(s) involved. In that sense we have Charles/Moira/Magneto. If you're following it voluntarily that's one thing, if you're being controlled, that's worse.

    Plus, you have to consider the position mutants have been put in; they're very vulnerable mentally. Speaking from experience, it's easy to jump at the first hopeful light; what you think might save you. It's understandable and, in one respect, great! But not if it's not coming from a genuine place or if they're being manipulated. That's horrible.

    As for the manipulation itself; it's the unchecked nature of Magneto and Charles that does it for me. Magneto's revered by the Krakoan people as this benevolent hero by all, despite the atrocities committed while Charles is, again, left unquestioned despite all the manipulation he's put characters through over the years. That reeks of charismatic manipulation to me, at least until I see otherwise.

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