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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post
    Well then...

    Shall we go down the list?
    That was incredibly made! Good Job.

    If it is ok with you I would like to take down a copy of this for later uses?

    Edit:

    Do note that I do disagree with some of the conclusions you have come to. Full Transparency.

    It should also be noted that ALL 15 does not need to be present for a Cult to be a Cult.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 12-09-2019 at 09:01 PM.
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  2. #92
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    I wouldn't necessarily say it's a cult. There are "cult" like qualities but I think it's Hickman's attempt at providing a culture for mutants. While I disagree with the attempt to separate mutants and humans, I think this action is what gives off a cult feeling. Either way that's just my opinion.

    Honestly, I think mutants casting off their past human culture is a terrible move.
    Last edited by TheDeadSpace; 12-08-2019 at 04:26 PM.
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  3. #93
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Ahhh...now I see the logic discrepancy...cult/ture.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  4. #94
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Impressive work…
    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Yeah, that's really well done. Its the kind of thing we all might want to bookmark and maybe update in a month or even week by week. Like, the 'cutting ties' thing. There was an off-hand comment in FA about people looking at them differently for going off island, and the upcoming couple of issues of New Mutants might make shake things up with regards to the new members and dissent stuff. There's that one comment from Apocalypse about the orgies and making new mutants, too.

    But right now its mostly innuendo and just eyebrow raising. The kind of thing to pay more attention to going forward, but not quite enough to point at and the do the bodysnatchers scream.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    That was incredibly made! Good Job.
    If it is ok with you I would like to take down a copy of this for later uses?

    Edit: Do note that I do disagree with some of the conclusions you have come to. Full Transparency.
    It should also be noted that ALL 15 does not need to be present for a Cult to be a Cult.
    Thank y’all!

    Feel free to take it and update it as you see fit.
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  5. #95
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Honestly, I think mutants casting off their past human culture is a terrible move.
    Like, say, if they discarded all human-related holidays and exclusively observe only mutant-related memorial days?

    The stripping off of human clothes for those entering Krakoa is technically an example too.

    And I agree that striderblack01's table needs to be kept and updated for every new Dox issue that comes out. One big update could be during the Marvel's Incoming Alpha that's supposed to preview the MU status quo for the 2020 publishing year. That point in time's a prime moment for Krakoa to resurrect X, and maybe we'll get context as to why the group picture with him, Mags and Apoc is always labeled the "Deadly Alliance" in all Incoming promotional images.
    Last edited by Londo Bellian; 12-08-2019 at 05:00 PM.
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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    Like, say, if they discarded all human-related holidays and exclusively observe only mutant-related memorial days?

    The stripping off of human clothes for those entering Krakoa is technically an example too.

    And I agree that striderblack01's table needs to be kept and updated for every new Dox issue that comes out. One big update could be during the Marvel's Incoming Alpha that's supposed to preview the MU status quo for the 2020 publishing year. That point in time's a prime moment for Krakoa to resurrect X, and maybe we'll get context as to why the group picture with him, Mags and Apoc is always labeled the "Deadly Alliance" in all Incoming promotional images.
    Then what about Jehovah Witnesses? Not only is a practicing Jehovah witness not suppose to vote they also aren't suppose to celebrate birthdays, thanksgiving, christmas etc, as well as not getting tatoos or blood transfusions because the body is a temple.

    Or how about your run of the mill atheist. By some of the logic in this thread from the moment we are born aren't we all living in a cult until we find our own beliefs and exercise them?
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  7. #97
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    Like, say, if they discarded all human-related holidays and exclusively observe only mutant-related memorial days?

    The stripping off of human clothes for those entering Krakoa is technically an example too.

    And I agree that striderblack01's table needs to be kept and updated for every new Dox issue that comes out. One big update could be during the Marvel's Incoming Alpha that's supposed to preview the MU status quo for the 2020 publishing year. That point in time's a prime moment for Krakoa to resurrect X, and maybe we'll get context as to why the group picture with him, Mags and Apoc is always labeled the "Deadly Alliance" in all Incoming promotional images.
    This is like saying "If Mutants Living On Krakoa Started Kicking Puppies..."

    Cite the issue and page that has pointed to anything like what you described or what is in quotes actually being the case.

    If you can't?

    What is the point in even entertaining said "What If?"

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    I wouldn't necessarily say it's a cult. There are "cult" like qualities but I think it's Hickman's attempt at providing a culture for mutants. While I disagree with the attempt to separate mutants and humans, I think this action is what gives off a cult feeling. Either way that's just my opinion.

    Honestly, I think mutants casting off their past human culture is a terrible move.
    Same; plus it's kind of illogical, really. Mutants are humans, there's the real possibility they'll still give birth to them. Culture building I totally get and welcome, but even than that's always influenced by where those people were born and what came before. Christmas, for example; our bringing in of tree's to the house is from the Pagan tradition of Yule! Plus, many characters have actually held their cultures and heritages close to them as part of their identities--Dani and her Cheyenne heritage, for example. It doesn't make sense that suddenly she's turning around and decrying all 'human' approaches. In fact, that's the other cult-like aspect; the whole 'our purpose is the true way.'

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    This is like saying "If Mutants Living On Krakoa Started Kicking Puppies..."

    Cite the issue and page that has pointed to anything like what you described or what is in quotes actually being the case.

    If you can't?

    What is the point in even entertaining said "What If?"
    There was a recent interview, actually, about how they were planning new, Krakoa specific holidays. https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.co...nny-x-men-308/ Which is cool! But, like the other poster said, it doesn't have to come at the expense of the holidays that were once enjoyed and celebrated by the characters. That'd be inorganic even for a new culture as most of those are informed by old traditions and such.

  10. #100
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    There was a recent interview, actually, about how they were planning new, Krakoa specific holidays. https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.co...nny-x-men-308/ Which is cool! But, like the other poster said, it doesn't have to come at the expense of the holidays that were once enjoyed and celebrated by the characters. That'd be inorganic even for a new culture as most of those are informed by old traditions and such.
    Nothing about me getting a "Beyond Meat..." Slider at White Castle today even points to that I will never again buy a "Classic Coke..." Slider.

    As for "Planning...", again...

    That means that there is no page in an existing issue that points to anything like this even being in the cards down the line.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 12-08-2019 at 07:30 PM.

  11. #101
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure all the toys, cartoon shows, and child reading programs they have set up was in hopes to primarily grab adults.
    "Are Being Pushed More..." is the exact way you worded it.

    Again, nothing in your post points to that being the case in the year 2019. One would have to be largely unaware of the "Bigger Picture..." when it comes to "Comics" to even entertain the idea.

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Okay, I know you're being sarcastic, but considering that Secret Empire was Nick Spencer going "Hey let's turn the character who literally wears the american flag and literally punches Hitler in the face on the cover of his first appearance into a secret fascist all along" and Marvel going "I love it, let's start selling Hydra T-Shirts!", you have more faith in Marvel than I do.
    So two thing

    1. They gave Cap an out. Which is the real point of my post. No writer is trying to make heroes bad. The intent of the story wasn't to make Captian America evil forever. People aren't asking themselves what is the point of the story or why they are making these supposed changes.

    2. Two it was clear as day what was happening in Secret Empire. I have read enough comic stories to know this isn't a big reveal "The heroes are actually bad in the story". This is a grey area story where the heroes are Good and Bad.

    Once again I am not telling anybody they are wrong they are some signs of what is being talked about. Again the danger is saying Dawn of X is only a Cult X-men story for example. This is one of the signs of being a cult "Group is preoccupied with bringing in new members". While it could be a sign of being in a cult, It is also a survival strategy there is strength in numbers. If the author is using that sign he is playing up the cult angle to make it something innocent look questionable. The only danger is definitely going the X-men are right or the X-men are wrong. The story is designed to make you feel the two things.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 12-08-2019 at 09:19 PM.

  13. #103
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
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    (Me, reading this thread.)

    Ok!

    Less there be any confusion on where I stand on the issue, perhaps I should clarify now.

    I think many of us are in agreement that Hickman is being extremely deliberate with his story choices and implications.
    This is something that many (myself included) have been contending since he first started his run. During discussions, many of the critics of the new direction have and still do casually toss out the 'cult' accusation. And while it wasn't completely unfounded, it did seem a bit lazy and undefined.

    So, naturally, any chance to formally dive deeper into a specific issue like this and properly examine it should lead to better conversations.
    Theoretically.

    My first post in this thread was about how the term 'cult' has limited formal applications, how there's no 'scientific' way of establishing if a group fits the term, and how there's a large gray area that separates cult from non-cult. I was calling for nuance. A call that was pretty much immediately ignored.

    Rather than focusing on the knee-jerk application of the label, ultimately to dismiss the run, proper discussions should primarily focus on the potentially harmful practices observed.

    That's why I filled out the checklist. That said, it does not paint a wholly accurate picture by itself. It does not take into account the underlying reasons for the circumstances behind some of the actions taken in the creation of the Krakoan nation. The inclusion of the Notes section was an attempt at providing some explanation and context, but it does not go deep enough.
    Further analysis is required.

    So while the checklist does provide a good starting place for properly framing this conversation (i.e. observable behavior), it can't be the end-all-be-all deciding factor of what constitutes cult behavior.



    Additionally, it's unclear if its application is proper for a nation, rather than a group or organization.

    New membership and fundraising are extremely beneficial to cults in funneling money to the leadership.
    But they are logistical realities of building a nation. There's been no evidence that Charles or the Council are scamming money from the citizens of Krakoa to personally enrich themselves.

    Similarly, encouraging people to live in Krakoa and being unsure about a life outside of it would be vital tactics to ensure the survival of a cult.
    But clearly, for Krakoa, these relate to the conditions surrounding the mistreatment of mutants by the world at large.

    That's 4 out of 8 checks perfectly mitigated by justifiable non-cult explanations.
    Last edited by Striderblack01; 12-08-2019 at 11:18 PM.
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  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Striderblack01 View Post

    Further analysis is required.

    So while the checklist does provide a good starting place for properly framing this conversation (i.e. observable behavior), it can't be the end-all-be-all deciding factor of what constitutes cult behavior.



    Additionally, it's unclear if its application is proper for a nation, rather than a group or organization.

    New membership and fundraising are extremely beneficial to cults in funneling money to the leadership.
    But they are logistical realities of building a nation. There's been no evidence that Charles or the Council are scamming money from the citizens of Krakoa to personally enrich themselves.

    Similarly, encouraging people to live in Krakoa and being unsure about a life outside of it would be vital tactics to ensure the survival of a cult.
    But clearly, for Krakoa, these relate to the conditions surrounding the mistreatment of mutants by the world at large.

    That's 4 out of 8 checks perfectly mitigated by justifiable non-cult explanations.
    Definitely agree with all you've said.

    However, in regards to the last bit, we do have a historic parallel with which to compare in regards to that grey area as well. (Note, I am not saying this is the deciding proof that Krakoa is a cult--I'm pointing out where some literary influence may have come from and the feelings it's reminding readers of!)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWqACvTknls

    While we, as outside observers, know for that fact that Jonestown was a much more sinister place with less noble intentions than was being touted by Jim Jones, the people/followers of such aren't too disimilar to the mutant characters we know and love; they broke away from their homes and families to form their own utopia. Because of the things we've previous established both through the chart and other subjective examples, it isn't unreasonable to see Krakoa as Jonestown's establishment (not the result!) on a bigger scale.

    I.e, Jonestown was designed to be its' own utopia/nation of sorts in a similar vein to Krakoa, that is, a safe place for followers to live as they believed and make the world better for it.

    Additionally, on the fundraising and new membership note, those can be applied a bit looser than we'd traditionally expect.

    New membership, in this case, is the population boom that the third law of the land is working towards, through various means I should emphasis, while also having a certain focus on wanting every mutant to join them to live the homeland, rather than live apart, as we can see in the New Mutants #3 preview. That is to say; Armour doesn't express outright concern at first for those who aren't here, so much as frames it as "I can't be happy if they aren't with us." Additionally, there seems to be an urgency for her to bring said missing peoples there despite, as Sage pointed out, the invite was an invite, not an order.


    Again, this isn't meant to be an argument for "It is a cult!" Just, ya know, another way of viewing it based on both the chart and the definitions and how those appear to be playing out so far.

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    When mutants are being forced to live in Krakoa and have children against their will or be forced to believe in a God or person without question or when Krakoa's laws say that mutants must kill humans I will start to worry .

    Until then the party continues.

    Man some people just can't see minorities being happy .

    It is as if they are saying that mutants cannot have a culture or beliefs or cannot be happy without the help of humans who have hunted and killed them for years.

    Personally I see no difference from Krakoa's beliefs to Catholics or any other religion in the world. But hey they are mutants how dare they have different beliefs than humans ?

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