Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 148
  1. #46
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    A. Just like many cults.
    And just like millions of regular people, so what? Billions of people go out to drink or party with friend every night everywhere in the world, despite in real life people also need to work and make a living. What happens on Krakoa happens every night in every city, only difference it happens in clubs or bars, not in the open (it also happens in the open where the weather allows, where there are public parks, or beaches actually). It’s a natural and common part of everyone life. People on Krakoa don’t even need to work, it’s not weird or cultish that they gather together, around a fire, talk, dance and so on. These are spontaneous gatherings, go out every evening in some club, bar, disco, cultural centre even, cinema and you will find a lot of this cultish gatherings happening.

  2. #47

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    Moira does the opposite of that. In her diaries she worries that Xavier and Magneto are taking wrong decisions. And she worries that her influence is bad for Xavier. Magneto talks about himself so it’s a bit ridiculous to consider him both the leader and the group that consider himself a god Additionally you say below that Scott questions Xaviers, so much for zealous and unquestioning commitment. And we have Wolverine showing disagreement with Magneto ideas etc. And there is a council of very diverse persons taking decisions not a leader, so again, no cult. They even say the council is a temporary measure so probably the decision process will become even more representative. There is not even a leader to follow unquestionably.

    There is no scene like that in HOX 5, but even if there was saying “of course you do” it’s literally the opposite of discouraging doubts, it’s admitting that having doubts it’s totally normal, that there is a greater good though. Nothing to do with discouraging doubts, if he said “no what we are doing is 100% the right thing” it would have been discouraging doubt or dissident, instead he admits what they do can be questioned.
    Regardless of her worry, Moira still exerted enough of her influence to 'break' Charles sense of idealism at least partly, I believe this was even pointed out in a data page. And yes, Magneto does seem to consider himself a god and a leader. There might be a ruling council, as there is in religions such as Jehovah's witnesses, but despite that Charles and Magneto are still considered the 'leaders' via it being a shared/compromised vision between the two. Charles, arguably, could be considered the overall authority given that he's the one in charge of backing up everyone's very souls. As for the scene I mentioned in HOX/POX; that is absolutely what happened. Scott wasn't pressed on his doubts, wasn't even encouraged to voice what they were; Xavier just side-stepped and, in a way, seemed to gas-light him. He put emphasis on it being "Important for his family", a higher cause was put above Scott's own thoughts and feelings, to which Scott (which is in character for him, I admit,) happily complied. But you were right, it was HOX #4, I mis-remembered.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    Please it’s not “people” is children, they are fascinated by Magneto because they are children. And curiously you omit that in the same scene Cyclops and Lorna even make fun of that and say it start to be embarrassing, so much for everyone thinking their leaders are perfect and not questioning what they say/so, the literally laugh about it, and justify it with a “he waited so much for that, let him enjoy it for a bit” the scene as a whole shows the opposite of your “cut” of it.
    Were those really all children? I know there were obviously children amongst them but the height of some of them could put them on, at least, the cusp of adulthood. Regardless, Magneto isn't discouraging this worship of him in such a manner and even feeding into it.

    Additionally, you seem not to understand how cults can operate; a lot of the time there is questioning behind the leaders' or higher-up members backs and, in some cases, most higher-ups are afforded much more privilege to address such things amongst themselves without getting in trouble. A cult does not equal a hive-mind, it can be in various forms and, more often than not, people don't realise they've joined one until it's too late. Even if those are just children, Magneto is still being inadvertently harmful by feeding into what looks like the start of unquestioning worship for him.
    But this isn't me arguing vehemently that Krakoa is a cult, it's me pointing out the cult-like behaviours.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    What are they doing that would have considered reprehensible or unethical before? Saving mutant children? Saving mutant in general? It’s all they are doing in the all the DoX books. Nobody is forced to make children. Mutants to not be a cult should be the only people that are forbidden to procreate? They have a way to bring back millions of people that were brutally killed and they shouldn’t do it? This really doesn’t make sense at all. Should also avoid to free mutants from terrorist organizations or anti mutanti governments then?
    And I never said what they're doing is necessarily reprehensible; but even the most noble of causes does not mean that the execution can't always be harmful. Take for example preachers of any faith who consider it their mission in life to spread the word of their respective enlightenments; some are peaceful, some aren't, but either way both always consider what they're doing to be for the greater good and in the name of truth. The mutants' cause is noble and just, yes, but it can also go very wrong if not measured. Additionally, I never said anything about anyone being forced to have babies, I just quoted Kurt and pointed out how the encouraging of having children could be seen as a way to bring in more members/citizens, as isn't uncommon in cults also. Additionally, that being a law is considered 'encouragement' of procreation as much as it refers to the resurrection--even Apocalypse notes as such in Excalibur #1; that doesn't always have to be so overt or done at gun-point, it can be as simple as saying "Hey, when're we gonna hear the pitter-patter of baby feet around here?" Different shades of social interaction.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    I already replied to that, but anyway, Dazzler doesn’t shame Kwannon, she encourages her to embrace the peace they have she doesn’t tell her “hey everyone is happy here, you must have a problem, why you can’t be happy as anyone else?” And Xavier acknowledges Cyclops doubts’ validity when he says “of course you have” it’s the opposite of shaming.
    And, again, I point out; such shaming or perceived shaming isn't always so overt. In Dazzler's case, it came across as more of a hint to Kwannon of "Hey, don't rock the boat." Whereas with Scott, Xavier does not pay his concerns proper validity as he doesn't hear them out or even press Scott's side of the story or what he's even doubting at all. He side-steps it, much like a manipulator might, and gives it a faux-sense of acknowledgment, again, putting the mission statement above Scott's questions.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    Then I guess they have always been a cult, they spent their lives fighting for Xavier dream. Maybe they were more of a cult before because now they get to enjoy life (as shown in the partying on the island and on X-Men 1 with the Summers family gathering.)
    And I have acknowledged and pointed that out. Multiple times, in fact.



    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    In the first issue of X-Men we see Cyclops and family socializing with humans (Corsar and co). They have portals to go everywhere in the world and everyone is free to come and go. Kitty flirts with a human tattoo artist. Jubilee lives with her human baby. The first thing New Mutants decide to do is leaving the group to go on an adventure, and Scott helps them reach humans to go with. Krakoa is a safe place where they can live, not where they have to live. We already saw they have no issues interacting with non mutants.
    Yes, the Summers family were seen socialising with human family members--that's good. Corsair was even given a flower enabling him to visit. However, when expressing concern for his son Corsair seemed to need to make a point of pointing out how he only had a limited 'human' perspective, implying how regardless of what he said he might be considered wrong anyway. In supportive relationships, no-one should need to say something like that. For example, I'm autistic--when voicing concern for someone I do not have to preface it with "Listen, I know I'm disabled but this looks like XYZ." It implies that my perspective is automatically wrong and invalid. Additionally Jubilee is even concerned for Shogo and the fact that he's human in Excalibur. She doesn't feel confident enough to leave him on Krakoa long enough without her and has nightmares of Apocalypse killing him literally just for being human. Apocalypse, meanwhile, seems to believe that all babies born on Krakoa will be mutants despite evidence that two mutants can and have, in canon, birthed completely human children before. So, while there have been interactions with humans it does seem to come at a cost, with only Betsy being the one to truly interact with one (her twin brother) on a truly equal level. However, I do admit that we need more time to see this happen properly and how it plays out, as I mentioned in my post.

  3. #48

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    A. Just like many cults.
    B. Unless Krakoa is populated by suburban gay couples, I don’t think IVF and surrogacy will be the main sources of reproduction.
    C. Oh, well if Xavier and Magneto said Moira wasn’t important I guess she isn’t — Moira will burn Krakoa to the ground if she doesn’t like how it’s going.

    Xavier is the leader of a powerful nation. Having total transparency with the population is impossible. Hell, he couldn’t even manage that with his students.
    Yeah, that's the biggest red flag for me, to be honest. Dude has a history of manipulating people and rationalising it out with an 'ends justify the means' argument. Hence why a lot of readers are expecting a lot more questioning of this guy alone.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member Vegan Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,148

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    And just like millions of regular people, so what? Billions of people go out to drink or party with friend every night everywhere in the world, despite in real life people also need to work and make a living. What happens on Krakoa happens every night in every city, only difference it happens in clubs or bars, not in the open (it also happens in the open where the weather allows, where there are public parks, or beaches actually). It’s a natural and common part of everyone life. People on Krakoa don’t even need to work, it’s not weird or cultish that they gather together, around a fire, talk, dance and so on. These are spontaneous gatherings, go out every evening in some club, bar, disco, cultural centre even, cinema and you will find a lot of this cultish gatherings happening.
    Yes, I’m aware that people like to drink and have parties. I’m just noting the similarities between the free-spirit hippie cults of the 60s and 70s and what we’re seeing on Krakoa.

  5. #50
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    Then I guess they have always been a cult, they spent their lives fighting for Xavier dream. Maybe they were more of a cult before because now they get to enjoy life (as shown in the partying on the island and on X-Men 1 with the Summers family gathering.)
    The ending goal of Xavier dream was not to stay a group though, but to be people among other people regardless of your DNA and apparence… and powers.
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  6. #51
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Yeah, that's the biggest red flag for me, to be honest. Dude has a history of manipulating people and rationalising it out with an 'ends justify the means' argument. Hence why a lot of readers are expecting a lot more questioning of this guy alone.
    Mind-controlling all the mutants? A bit too much even for him… (Yes, I liked the character… before )
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  7. #52

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Mind-controlling all the mutants? A bit too much even for him… (Yes, I liked the character… before )
    Not necessarily mind control; more manipulation, possibly even gas-lighting. That's not above him, after all.

  8. #53
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Domino_Dare-Doll View Post
    Not necessarily mind control; more manipulation, possibly even gas-lighting. That's not above him, after all.
    Except in the first X-men issues, he has always regretted this kind of behaviour, expressed doubts. In a way, I don't see this from Hickman's Xavier. (Isn't he dead or is he alive?)
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  9. #54

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    Except in the first X-men issues, he has always regretted this kind of behaviour, expressed doubts. In a way, I don't see this from Hickman's Xavier. (Isn't he dead or is he alive?)
    And yet he still continued to do it in the name of the 'greater good.' Whether he regretted it or not does not absolve him from actually having done it, nor the impact it left on those affected. And same, I don't see any hint of regret in Hickman's Xavier, hence why I wouldn't be surprised if he did pull something like it.

  10. #55
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    Yes, I’m aware that people like to drink and have parties. I’m just noting the similarities between the free-spirit hippie cults of the 60s and 70s and what we’re seeing on Krakoa.
    I think you are confusing the spirit of the hippie culture with pseudo hippy cults from the same period. Hippies were about partying but also about freedom, about individuality, personal expression, against conformity and so on, cults that called themselves “hippy cult” weren’t hippy at all.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Vegan Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,148

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterParked View Post
    I think you are confusing the spirit of the hippie culture with pseudo hippy cults from the same period. Hippies were about partying but also about freedom, about individuality, personal expression, against conformity and so on, cults that called themselves “hippy cult” weren’t hippy at all.
    The CIA created the hippie movement so they could dictate the counterculture. It was all fabricated. As for the cults, none of them identified or thought of themselves as cults, otherwise they wouldn’t have been cults.

  12. #57
    Amazing Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    89

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    The CIA created the hippie movement so they could dictate the counterculture. It was all fabricated. As for the cults, none of them identified or thought of themselves as cults, otherwise they wouldn’t have been cults.
    Okay, now I see your fascination with cults. Enjoy your conspiracy theories, I have a saner life to live. Bye.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member Vegan Daddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    3,148

    Default


  14. #59
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    723

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    The CIA created the hippie movement so they could dictate the counterculture. It was all fabricated. As for the cults, none of them identified or thought of themselves as cults, otherwise they wouldn’t have been cults.
    Actually, even conspiracy theories can have elements of truth…
    "… something strong and soft and green,
    thrusting through the dead and petrified grayness."
    Alan Moore.

    If I offended you, be assured that it wasn't my intention. English is not my first language.

  15. #60
    Ninpuu - Shinobi Change! Striderblack01's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    404

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    To help the thread below is a list of "Characteristics Associated With Cultic Groups" created by a Ph.D.'s who have thoroughly studied them.

    As some of you can see the Current X-Men ,as they are being written , share several of these characteristics. But I'm sure there will still be many deniers due to not wanting to admit what is going on with their favorite characters and considering their is vamped online cult claiming to be "helping others" to cover up their own true natures.

    *shrug* Take a look, discuss, ignore, whatever.
    Great Post!

    I reorganized these because I ...felt compelled to.

    - The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).
    ‪- The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
    ‪- The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

    - The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
    - The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
    - The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
    - The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
    ‪- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
    ‪- The group is preoccupied with making money.
    - Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
    - Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
    -‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

    - Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
    -‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
    - The most loyal members (the true believers) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group.
    They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.



    It's always good to provide relevant information from experts.

    It feels like it would be a disservice to the conversation if the following information was also not shared.
    From the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA), where the above checklist came from:

    "Definitions advanced by ICSA associates imply that the term cult refers to a continuum, in which a large gray area separates cult from noncult; or they add qualifiers, such as destructive, to the term cult. These definitions suggest that there may be some debate about the appropriateness of the term as applied to a specific group, especially when available evidence indicates that the group is in or near the gray area of the continuum. This debate can become more acute when the group in question is one that varies among its geographic locations, has different levels of membership with correspondingly different levels of commitment, has changed over time in the direction of greater or less “cultishness,” or is skilled at public relations."

    "Much as people may wish that it were so, the fact is that, at least at present, no scientific “test” incontrovertibly establishes whether or not a group is indeed a cult. ICSA’s Group Psychological Abuse Scale (Chambers, Langone, Dole, & Grice, 1994) initiated a series of research studies that have increased our ability to measure psychological abuse, or cultishness (Almendros, Gamez-Gaudix, Rodriguez-Carballiera, & Carrobles, 2011). Nevertheless, much research remains before even preliminary scientific opinions could be formed about the cultishness of specific groups."

    "We try to direct inquirers’ attention to potentially harmful practices, rather than to a label. In essence, we say, “These are practices that have been associated with harmful effects in some people. To what, if any extent, are these practices found in the group in question? And how might you or your loved one be affected by these practices?” One of us (Langone) tries to focus a family’s concerns by saying, “Assume, even if only for the sake of argument, that your loved one were not in a cult. What if anything about his or her behavior would trouble you?” After the troubling behaviors are identified, then the family can try to determine how, if at all, these behaviors are related to the group environment. A label tends to be superfluous at this point in the analysis.

    Thus, we advocate a nuanced, evidence-based approach to definition and classification."

    Herbert L. Rosedale, Esq, and Michael D. Langone, PhD. On Using the Term "Cult". ICSA Today, Vol. 6, No. 3, 2015, 4-6

    Please note that these excerpts.
    The whole essay is fascinating and I encourage everyone to read it in its entirety.
    Last edited by Striderblack01; 12-08-2019 at 08:29 AM.
    The Milkshake Boom
    Quite possibly the greatest movie podcast ever made!
    (But probably not)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •