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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I doubt that. Carnage was established and confirmed in that story as a major Spider-Man villain, and he showed up in practically everything. The Fox cartoon, the Activision games, Ultimate Comics, and so on and so forth. And one of the biggest comic events this year -- Absolute Carnage -- is a sequel in spirit to Maximum Carnage. And it's definitely going to influence the upcoming Venom sequel.
    He was confirmed as a major threat almost immediately in his introductory arc when he defeated Spider-man with ease and the fact it took both Peter and Venom working together to overcome him. I place that 3 issue arc over Maximum Carnage in terms of importance because, without it, a lot of things simply wouldn't have happened (which Mister Mets summed up in his in his initial post).

    Fact is, in hard sales terms, this was Marvel's biggest ever event until CIVIL WAR, i.e. it was the biggest event storyline of the '90s. Bigger than Age of Apocalypse, bigger than Heroes Reborn, bigger than what-have-you.
    I'll have to take your word for that. But was Maximum Carnage ever in danger of being a dud? It had Spider-man, Venom, it was Carnages second return appearance, was 14 issues in length, and featured a multitude of guest heroes.

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Not so sure about Maximum Carnage. I mean, it is fondly remembered for the video game adaptation by those who were at an impressionable age (such as myself). Something that wouldn't have happened without the story to begin with. But it added very little in terms of lasting story implications. Carnage hit a high with the storyline and then plateaued afterwards.

    If you mean by the fact that its success led to further Spider-man "event" storylines? Possibly. But those would have happened regardless. DC was riding high due to Death Of Superman and Knightfall and Marvel had had annual X-Men "events" running since Inferno (although they really took off with X-Cutioner's Song). The successes there caused Marvel to implement a policy where every line had to have events.
    That's my feeling as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    By that metric nothing can be influential and lasting.
    It's more that very few things are guaranteed to be influential and lasting.

    You might have a closed system in which something influences work that doesn't influence other work.

    Which is irrelevant in terms of impact and importance of a story. The original Fawcett Story, "The Monster Society of Evil", hasn't been reprinted greatly either but that doesn't diminish it's importance and impact.
    It probably would be more influential if it was reprinted.

    However, the features that make it significant don't necessarily apply to Spectacular #200. The Monster Society of Evil was the first serialized superhero story, paving the way for successors.

    So did Jean Grey. I guess The Dark Phoenix Saga is an unimportant, useless, and dated story too, since practically every single element in that story has been reverse, overturned, and undone. I mean Jean Grey returned to life in a far shorter timeline than Harry Osborn did but that doesn't discount the importance of that story.
    The Dark Phoenix Saga has had quite a few successors, and influenced the X-Men mythos in big ways.

    I'm not sure that really applies to Spectacular Spider-Man #200, the conclusion of a story that repeated many of the beats of the first Harry Osborn saga.

    I doubt that. Carnage was established and confirmed in that story as a major Spider-Man villain, and he showed up in practically everything. The Fox cartoon, the Activision games, Ultimate Comics, and so on and so forth. And one of the biggest comic events this year -- Absolute Carnage -- is a sequel in spirit to Maximum Carnage. And it's definitely going to influence the upcoming Venom sequel.



    Fact is, in hard sales terms, this was Marvel's biggest ever event until CIVIL WAR, i.e. it was the biggest event storyline of the '90s. Bigger than Age of Apocalypse, bigger than Heroes Reborn, bigger than what-have-you.

    That is enough for importance.
    The sales would be significant, and an argument that this story might have influenced the rest of the 90s being so crossover-heavy.

    Do you have any evidence that it was that big?

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    He was confirmed as a major threat almost immediately in his introductory arc when he defeated Spider-man with ease and the fact it took both Peter and Venom working together to overcome him. I place that 3 issue arc over Maximum Carnage in terms of importance because, without it, a lot of things simply wouldn't have happened (which Mister Mets summed up in his in his initial post).
    That simply ignores the fact that Maximum Carnage is the first time most people learned of Carnage, and it established him as the first villain in Spider-Man's gallery who could be a Marvel Universe-wide threat. No Spider-Man villain was given that honor before and only Norman Osborn got that later.

    I am not someone who's a big fan of Maximum Carnage myself, in fact having read it recently to prep up for Cates' Absolute Carnage, I find it really bad, dated, and a let-down in a lot of places. It's like the 90s, ultraviolent and deeply childish at the same time. But again importance/significance is not the same as quality.

    Maximum Carnage is Carnage's biggest story, one of Spider-Man's biggest stories, biggest story of the 90s, and was the story that prove that Carnage and the Symbiotes by extension could travel and were here to stay. You could dismiss Venom and the Symbiotes as creepy horror stuff appendaged to Spider-Man before but when an event centered on two of them becomes the biggest in town, then it's harder to shake.

    I'll have to take your word for that. But was Maximum Carnage ever in danger of being a dud? It had Spider-man, Venom, it was Carnages second return appearance, was 14 issues in length, and featured a multitude of guest heroes.
    It's success was far beyond the level anyone could have expected and which no Spider-event since has replicated or approached.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    It's more that very few things are guaranteed to be influential and lasting.
    The title is "Most Important Stories of the 90s" not "Most Important Stories of the 90s that are continuously impactful in 2019".

    Just because a story or concept doesn't seem influential at a time of writing does not diminish the importance the story once had. Suppose in 2020, Spencer decides in favor of Kindred-maybe-Harry i.e. that Kindred is the Harry Osborn of Spectacular #200 and what we've been following is an impostor, that would in your estimation and view of things, increase the value of this story. To me even if it doesn't happen, it wouldn't change the fact that the story happened, it had an impact and influence and it lasted for a considerable time and influenced a variety of adaptations and retellings.

    You might have a closed system in which something influences work that doesn't influence other work.
    That's how all influences work. Some people are influenced by some things more than others. It's redundant.

    It probably would be more influential if it was reprinted.
    It's sufficiently more influential than stuff that is in print and in publication. Spectacular #200 has been a hell of a lot more important than Hobgoblin ever turned out to be, and that's in print.

    Do you have any evidence that it was that big?
    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...-venom-1148899

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That simply ignores the fact that Maximum Carnage is the first time most people learned of Carnage, and it established him as the first villain in Spider-Man's gallery who could be a Marvel Universe-wide threat. No Spider-Man villain was given that honor before and only Norman Osborn got that later.

    I am not someone who's a big fan of Maximum Carnage myself, in fact having read it recently to prep up for Cates' Absolute Carnage, I find it really bad, dated, and a let-down in a lot of places. It's like the 90s, ultraviolent and deeply childish at the same time. But again importance/significance is not the same as quality.

    Maximum Carnage is Carnage's biggest story, one of Spider-Man's biggest stories, biggest story of the 90s, and was the story that prove that Carnage and the Symbiotes by extension could travel and were here to stay. You could dismiss Venom and the Symbiotes as creepy horror stuff appendaged to Spider-Man before but when an event centered on two of them becomes the biggest in town, then it's harder to shake.
    The first Carnage issues were a big hit, and immediately reprinted, so that arc had early influence.

    It's success was far beyond the level anyone could have expected and which no Spider-event since has replicated or approached.



    The title is "Most Important Stories of the 90s" not "Most Important Stories of the 90s that are continuously impactful in 2019".

    Just because a story or concept doesn't seem influential at a time of writing does not diminish the importance the story once had. Suppose in 2020, Spencer decides in favor of Kindred-maybe-Harry i.e. that Kindred is the Harry Osborn of Spectacular #200 and what we've been following is an impostor, that would in your estimation and view of things, increase the value of this story. To me even if it doesn't happen, it wouldn't change the fact that the story happened, it had an impact and influence and it lasted for a considerable time and influenced a variety of adaptations and retellings.
    We have the benefit of seeing the influence from a modern context.

    Someone can always make the argument that something that seems important now is just a flash in the pan as well.

    That's how all influences work. Some people are influenced by some things more than others. It's redundant.
    But things aren't always influential to the same extent.

    You could have a musician who is influential on one later generation (a 1960s rock star with a fanbase in the punk rock movement) but not on another.

    It's sufficiently more influential than stuff that is in print and in publication. Spectacular #200 has been a hell of a lot more important than Hobgoblin ever turned out to be, and that's in print.
    The main argument here would be that Hobgblin's first appearance was once influential, but that it has ebbed in the aftermath of the Harry Osborn saga.

    One complication with Spec #200 is that many of the major beats of the Osborn saga occurred elsewhere. You could partially resolve that by looking at Spectacular Spider-Man #178-200 as one arc, but the 200th issue isn't when Harry first became the Green Goblin, it isn't when he fell off the wagon, and it isn't when he started tormenting Peter.

    The article suggests it sold well, but is there any indication that "in hard sales terms, this was Marvel's biggest ever event until CIVIL WAR."

    It was a really big story but that would be more influential if Marvel turned 12-15 issue crossovers into an annual event, which didn't quite happen (although one can argue that the Clone Saga often had stretches like that which attests to the influence on Maximum Carnage.)

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The first Carnage issues were a big hit, and immediately reprinted, so that arc had early influence.
    Nothing near the level of Maximum Carnage which again was the major introduction most readers outside Spider-Man readers, had to Carnage.

    We have the benefit of seeing the influence from a modern context.
    And even from a modern context JMD's Child Within/Best of Enemies is enormously influential and impactful. That story elevated Harry Osborn into a major supporting character which he wasn't at the time. Remember that Harry Osborn after he went Goblin in the '70s turned into a good guy and stayed that way for more than a decade+ and he was a fairly minor and not very significant supporting character in that period. He didn't make many appearances in the Stern, Defalco, and Michelinie era. Thanks to JMD, Harry Osborn became the third pillar of the Raimi movies, and clocked a major recurring role in the early part of Bendis' Ultimate run and all the adaptations that came since, which make him to be a bigger deal than he was. I say that not as someone who's a fan of the latter-day elevation of Harry but basically that wouldn't have happened without JMD's story.

    You could have a musician who is influential on one later generation (a 1960s rock star with a fanbase in the punk rock movement) but not on another.
    Beatles may not be very influential on hip hop and rap music, which is bigger than rock music these days, but that doesn't mean the influence of the Beatles isn't great or lasting.

    The main argument here would be that Hobgblin's first appearance was once influential, but that it has ebbed in the aftermath of the Harry Osborn saga.
    In the case of Hobgoblin his influence faded by the end of the decade. By the time Venom showed up, everyone was like "Hobgoblin who?" and not in a "Who shot JR" way. People got so bored and fatigued by the Hobgoblin red herrings and double-turns that they were grateful to move away from it by the end of the decade.

    Hobgoblin is largely important for Spider-Man fans and readers of a certain age, cult appeal mostly. He's otherwise not an especially important or lasting character.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    I'm baffled by Marvel having not collected the DeMatteis/Buscema SSM run in its entirety.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'm baffled by Marvel having not collected the DeMatteis/Buscema SSM run in its entirety.
    As are JMD and others. It seems to be one of those things where the people behind the legacy prints and so on are missing the spot constantly.

    Again, just to reiterate, simply because something isn't in print doesn't mean it's impact or influence isn't/wasn't great.
    -- Alan Moore's Miracleman went a decade plus out of print until Marvel brought it back but that didn't negate the influence and impact of those comics in that period.
    -- Kirby's New Gods were also rare objects until the Omnibuses that came out. But it was still pretty impactful in the interim.

  8. #23
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    The nineties, to me as a nineties kid, was Venom and Carnage, and how insane their back issue price values were while "Ooo" and "Ahhh" ing the covers, by the time I was a teenager the early noughties, and still am today.

    NOTE: Maximum Carnage, will be excluded from list, due to the fact that all parts, including Spider-Man Unlimited #1, could be found at a dollar each.


    10. Venom: Separation Anxiety #1
    9. Spider-Man Adventures #10
    8. Amazing Spider-Man #344
    7. Venom: Lethal Protector #1
    6. Amazing Spider-Man #346
    5. Amazing Spider-Man #347
    4. Amazing Spider-Man #332
    3. Amazing Spider-Man #363
    2. Amazing Spider-Man #362
    1. Amazing Spider-Man #361
    Last edited by ngroove; 12-10-2019 at 10:39 AM.

  9. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Nothing near the level of Maximum Carnage which again was the major introduction most readers outside Spider-Man readers, had to Carnage.
    Does it really matter which arc introduced readers to Carnage?

    There's also the follow-up of how much Maximum Carnage mattered to the comics. Afterwards, Carnage wasn't really a big enough villain to carry a three issue Spider-Man arc by himself.

    The original Carnage arc also marked Venom's first team-up with Spider-Man, paving the way for his heroic turn.

    And even from a modern context JMD's Child Within/Best of Enemies is enormously influential and impactful. That story elevated Harry Osborn into a major supporting character which he wasn't at the time. Remember that Harry Osborn after he went Goblin in the '70s turned into a good guy and stayed that way for more than a decade+ and he was a fairly minor and not very significant supporting character in that period. He didn't make many appearances in the Stern, Defalco, and Michelinie era. Thanks to JMD, Harry Osborn became the third pillar of the Raimi movies, and clocked a major recurring role in the early part of Bendis' Ultimate run and all the adaptations that came since, which make him to be a bigger deal than he was. I say that not as someone who's a fan of the latter-day elevation of Harry but basically that wouldn't have happened without JMD's story.
    Harry popped up every now and then before DeMatteis made him a big bad and then killed off.

    It's worth noting that in Ultimate Spider-Man, he mainly appeared in Goblin-centric arcs. He wasn't really a supporting character.

    Beatles may not be very influential on hip hop and rap music, which is bigger than rock music these days, but that doesn't mean the influence of the Beatles isn't great or lasting.
    Rock and pop still remain pretty big, but I don't think the Beatles comparison quite works given how dominant they were.

    A better comparison might be whether the reputation of another British Invasion band like the Animals could ebb and flow.

    In the case of Hobgoblin his influence faded by the end of the decade. By the time Venom showed up, everyone was like "Hobgoblin who?" and not in a "Who shot JR" way. People got so bored and fatigued by the Hobgoblin red herrings and double-turns that they were grateful to move away from it by the end of the decade.

    Hobgoblin is largely important for Spider-Man fans and readers of a certain age, cult appeal mostly. He's otherwise not an especially important or lasting character.
    He was a dominant villain in the 80s and 90s, and while he faded in the decade after Norman Osborn came back, he has also become more prominent in the Big Time era comics.

    His significance was artificially inflated in the 90s when he was one of the major villains in the Spider-Man cartoon, mainly because they thought his toy would outsell the Green Goblin.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The article suggests it sold well, but is there any indication that "in hard sales terms, this was Marvel's biggest ever event until CIVIL WAR."
    Sales figures are a bit harder to come by for the months Maximum Carnage was being published, but the yearly list of highest sellers in 1993 has Amazing Spider-man #375 as the best selling Spidey issue that year (Uncanny X-Men #300 and Cable #1 placing higher). It placed at 21. Spider-man Unlimited #1 (Maximum Carnage Part 1) was 22.

    1993 was dominated by Superman and Image.

    https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1993.html

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'm baffled by Marvel having not collected the DeMatteis/Buscema SSM run in its entirety.
    100% agreed. If nothing else, the fall of Harry Osborn was a far broader story than just SSM#200, and I always felt The Child Within was incredibly underrated.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Sales figures are a bit harder to come by for the months Maximum Carnage was being published, but the yearly list of highest sellers in 1993 has Amazing Spider-man #375 as the best selling Spidey issue that year (Uncanny X-Men #300 and Cable #1 placing higher). It placed at 21. Spider-man Unlimited #1 (Maximum Carnage Part 1) was 22.

    1993 was dominated by Superman and Image.

    https://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/1993.html
    And other issues from the crossover do not seem to be in the Top 100.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    And other issues from the crossover do not seem to be in the Top 100.
    Well, no. They don't. But when you take into account just how big the industry was at that point in time, the storyline was still profitable for Marvel. This is despite everybody in the Spidey office hating it with a passion lol.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    He was a dominant villain in the 80s and 90s, and while he faded in the decade after Norman Osborn came back, he has also become more prominent in the Big Time era comics.

    His significance was artificially inflated in the 90s when he was one of the major villains in the Spider-Man cartoon, mainly because they thought his toy would outsell the Green Goblin.
    as someone who started into spider-man in the 90s, hobgoblin was definitely my goblin. i think i first encountered the character in the sega game.
    troo fan or death

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Well, no. They don't. But when you take into account just how big the industry was at that point in time, the storyline was still profitable for Marvel. This is despite everybody in the Spidey office hating it with a passion lol.
    But the specific metric was "in hard sales terms, this was Marvel's biggest ever event until CIVIL WAR." I don't see any indication it was on that level.

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