View Poll Results: Better female character

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  • Rey

    5 29.41%
  • Michael Burnham

    12 70.59%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    This would actually make sense if I did this but I didn't. I already said Guinan, from Star Trek TNG was the best character in the show and she is a black woman.

    I also called captain Janeway, a female character and first female to serve as captain on star trek the greatest captain to ever fight the Borg.Ashoka and Leia are the some of the best characters in star wars overall, not just females.

    The race or sexist argument only works if there is real evidence to support it. here, there is none.
    I really can't believe people are still saying racist or sexist when Lucas himself has said star trek ST is not that good and some star trek actors form the 90s have also criticised discovery for been more about actions and explosions than high fantasy science fiction with deep human themes.
    I'm not seeing why you would even take that post as directed at you.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Both are very flawed characters.

    Michael would be fine if there was simply less focus on her. She is written to have flaws which helped cause a war and get her mentor killed, and her arc is about overcoming that. The focus on her to the detriment of the rest of the cast really hurts the show, however.

    Rey as a character needed to be fundamentally rethought from the start. Since she's so good at everything to begin with there's no tension or story. In theory her arc is supposed to be about letting go of the past, but in practice it's nonexistent. It's not a matter of cutting back or telling the story in a different way. There's simply no story to tell in the first place.

    And Rey is not like Luke and Anakin. They failed again and again. Both lost their first-ever light-saber duels on screen and lost a limb doing so. Luke spends the entirety of Empire Strikes back failing at what he's doing and getting his butt handed to him. They both grew from failure. Anakin beating Dooku mattered because he had lost to him once before. Luke rescuing Han in Return of the Jedi was a redemption for his failure to do so in Empire.
    Well said, and a breathe of fresh air to read this, I had to dig deep for this post.

    I agree Michael has too much focus,I thought she left off easily for starting the Klingon War, is not even the klingon war, is her importance to the house of sarek . I rewatched the TNG episode that sarek guest stared in and he is suffering from Vulcan dementia , in that state he calls for the people he loves. Amanda, Spock and as expected no Michael. its just weird watching that now because discovery has set up Michael as so important to sarek, maybe even more than Amanda. that is poor writing and if you have seen season 2, I have no clue how anyone came up with the red angel storyline. that storyline is even poor for a CW show talk less of Star Trek..

    As for Rey, why she is a poorly done character is because she has no back story. we see Luke anchored by his uncle and aunt, we see him try and find his way with han and leia, we see him bond with obiwan, we see his views about the empire and how he wants to help but feels he can't do much. Luke had a strong back story to drive him before Episode 5. Rey does not, she is a character of no substance, despite having a similar conception to Luke.

    Hollywood for a while have been struggling to create better art compared to their classic era of star wars OT and Star Trek TOS and TNG. Rey and Michael are symptoms of that problem.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 12-10-2019 at 02:16 PM.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    Well said, and a breathe of fresh air to read this, I had to dig deep for this post.

    I agree Michael has too much focus,I thought she left off easily for starting the Klingon War, is not even the klingon war, is her importance to the house of sarek . I rewatched the TNG episode that sarek guest stared in and he is suffering from Vulcan dementia , in that state he calls for the people he loves. Amanda, Spock and as expected no Michael. its just weird watching that now because discovery has set up Michael as so important to sarek, maybe even more than Amanda. that is poor writing and if you have seen season 2, I have no clue how anyone came up with the red angel storyline. that storyline is even poor for a CW show talk less of Star Trek..

    As for Rey, why she is a poorly done character is because she has no back story. we see Luke anchored by his uncle and aunt, we see him try and find his way with han and leia, we see him bond with obiwan, we see his views about the empire and how he wants to help but feels he can't do much. Luke had a strong back story to drive him before Episode 5. Rey does not, she is a character of no substance, despite having a similar conception to Luke.

    Hollywood for a while have been struggling to create better art compared to their classic era of star wars OT and Star Trek TOS and TNG. Rey and Michael are symptoms of that problem.
    Everything you're saying is an opinion and you're entitled to it, but why the need to prove it as though this isn't all subjective?

    I could just as easily say, "We see Rey isolated and scraping by, struggling to survive. We see her bond with BB-8. We see her fighting with and for Finn. We know she admires the rebellion. We feel her deeply held belief that her parents will come back to her so that she won't have to face the fact that she was abandoned. We see her bond with Han only to lose him, etc..." Does that make her interesting to you? Maybe not, but saying she's not interesting doesn't make it so.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    You're free not to like them or love them for whatever reason you like... but "Mary Sue" just doesn't apply. Thread over?

  5. #35
    Mighty Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    This decade is almost over and people still don't know how to use the term "Mary Sue" correctly.

    News flash: an overpowered or overly competent female character is not a Mary Sue. They're just overpowered or overly competent, which can (but not always) mean poor writing.

    Coming from someone who doesn't care about Rey or Star Wars at all.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    This decade is almost over and people still don't know how to use the term "Mary Sue" correctly.

    News flash: an overpowered or overly competent female character is not a Mary Sue. They're just overpowered or overly competent, which can (but not always) mean poor writing.

    Coming from someone who doesn't care about Rey or Star Wars at all.
    Isnt one of the core concepts of Mary Sue that they are inserted into a pre existing story and warps entirely around them. With Rey she's merely a main character so whatever. Michael has the issue though that she's Spocks half sister AND its a prequel so unless their careful it can fall into that.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Isnt one of the core concepts of Mary Sue that they are inserted into a pre existing story and warps entirely around them. With Rey she's merely a main character so whatever. Michael has the issue though that she's Spocks half sister AND its a prequel so unless their careful it can fall into that.
    Others have been saying it in this thread - one of the main qualities of the Mary Sue is that they're a stand-in for the writer essentially interjecting themselves into the story.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Isnt one of the core concepts of Mary Sue that they are inserted into a pre existing story and warps entirely around them. With Rey she's merely a main character so whatever. Michael has the issue though that she's Spocks half sister AND its a prequel so unless their careful it can fall into that.
    It can't fall into it though...because it's not fan fiction. If people writing the show decide to introduce a new character to the universe and make them important to the pre-existing mythology that's well with in their rights. Now the writing they use to do that may be good or bad but either way its not a Mary Sue which is why the topic is absurd.

  9. #39
    Mighty Member C_Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoneySpider View Post
    Agreed. How Michael Burnham is considered a Mary Sue by some online critics while so many of her other online critics are blaming her for stuff (mutiny, creating a war between the Federation and the Klingons, etc. etc.) is beyond me.

    If she sneezes, people will claim she's contagious and could make the entire crew sick. Meanwhile, we've got characters like Batgod running around, who can supposedly and apparently take down ANYONE with prep time...because he's Batman. And it's no longer a joke, some people actually believe that and will argue with me about how true it is that he can take down anyone. It's ridiculous.
    Michael Burnham being called a Mary Sue might be the biggest example of the pervasiveness of sexism in Sci-Fi fandoms. Her first actions in the show lead her to getting her Captain killed, starting a war and then convicted of treason. 90% of male characters don't suffer the same consequences for their similar actions. And on top of that, they spend a whole season allowing her to earn her respect back. If you don't like her as a character, that's fine. Not every character is for everyone, but to say she's a Mary Sue might mean you have to look internally about how you view female characters.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Miller View Post
    Michael Burnham being called a Mary Sue might be the biggest example of the pervasiveness of sexism in Sci-Fi fandoms. Her first actions in the show lead her to getting her Captain killed, starting a war and then convicted of treason. 90% of male characters don't suffer the same consequences for their similar actions. And on top of that, they spend a whole season allowing her to earn her respect back. If you don't like her as a character, that's fine. Not every character is for everyone, but to say she's a Mary Sue might mean you have to look internally about how you view female characters.
    I'm going to watch it finally even though I can't stand the new look for the Klingons.

  11. #41
    Mighty Member MoneySpider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Isnt one of the core concepts of Mary Sue that they are inserted into a pre existing story and warps entirely around them. With Rey she's merely a main character so whatever. Michael has the issue though that she's Spocks half sister AND its a prequel so unless their careful it can fall into that.
    Slight nitpick, but Michael is Spock's adopted/foster sister, not half sister. Michael's biological human parents were killed at some point and Sarek and Amanda adopted her, if I remember correctly.
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  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Never watched Star Trek, so I can't really comment on that.

    Rey... Force Awakens killed my interest in anything after.

    "Rey isn't a Mary Sue! That's sexist!"

    Look, it has nothing to do with Rey being female. It has everything to do with her supposedly being on a hero's journey, but not actually needing it. Training in the Force? Nope. Lightsaber training? Nope. Learning from a trained Force user (Jedi OR Sith) to at least jumpstart her own abilities? Nope. Fixing the Falcon better than Han or Chewie?

    I can keep going, but I won't. Ahsoka from the animated Clone Wars series is a great character, and from another franchise, Rayla is another great character in the "The Dragon Prince". Those are just for example. Rey, is just an awful character.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Rey as a character needed to be fundamentally rethought from the start. Since she's so good at everything to begin with there's no tension or story.
    "Good at everything?" We've been shown she's terrible with a blaster; when Han gives it to her, she clearly has no idea how to properly use one (she carelessly points it at Han who has to push it down). She forgets the safety (twice, when counting the canon novelization), and proves to be a terrible shot.

    She's terrible at reading people, being the only one fooled by Finn's obvious lies about being a Resistance operative (albeit there was some degree of plausibility given the unthinkable nature of defecting stormtrooper and that the First Order chasing him down would make sense if he was Resistance, but still, he did a poor job keeping it up). Her mistake in trusting Kylo Ren almost got herself killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    In theory her arc is supposed to be about letting go of the past, but in practice it's nonexistent. It's not a matter of cutting back or telling the story in a different way. There's simply no story to tell in the first place.
    In practice, it informs everything about her; her story arc in the first movie is about how her clinging to the past for her family is something she needs to get past, and she does that by finding familial connections in the present. Her messing with the dark side pit and the insecurity Kylo tries to play off of is all tied to her unresolved past. Heck, the reason she's trying to become a Jedi is because where her first story arc lead. Like it or don't like it, but it's there.

    [QUOTE=sunofdarkchild;4727425]And Rey is not like Luke and Anakin. They failed again and again.

    You kidding me. First of all, Luke and Anakin mostly win in their first movies (Anakin wins a podace he was never able to beat and destroys the droid ship by accident despite not being a trained fighter pilot, the latter much like Luke). Secondly, if you think Rey never fails, remember how she reacted when Maz tried to steer her to the Jedi path, when she had the Force vision of Kylo supposedly turning?

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Both lost their first-ever light-saber duels on screen and lost a limb doing so. Luke spends the entirety of Empire Strikes back failing at what he's doing and getting his butt handed to him. They both grew from failure.
    Let's see, Rey's first Force fight had her curb-stomped and captured. Her first sword fight was against a very badly injured Kylo and she still barely won (she was on a relatively equal footing, compared to Luke and Anakin's previous ones). We know from Takodana how one-sided it would've been had Kylo been at full health (seriously, when anyone tells me that Rey's victory makes no sense, that tells me they weren't paying attention to the movie's excellent foreshadowing and setup).

    Also, her fight with Kylo doesn't serve the same narrative purpose as Luke's with Vader; for Rey, it was the moment she accepted her new power and calling. It was her version of Luke's destroying the Death Star in ANH; her duel with Vader mistake was going after Kylo in TLJ. She may have been relatively luckier in not getting maimed for it, but that was her mistake to learn from. (Funny how both their first victories and first big screw ups where in the first and second movie, yet we're trying to compare movie one Rey with movie two Luke.)

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    Anakin beating Dooku mattered because he had lost to him once before. Luke rescuing Han in Return of the Jedi was a redemption for his failure to do so in Empire.
    And we'll find out in a few weeks how Rey does the same for her story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Rey... Force Awakens killed my interest in anything after.

    "Rey isn't a Mary Sue! That's sexist!"
    Then why does she get criticized for doing the things that Luke and Anakin did and were not criticized or praised for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Look, it has nothing to do with Rey being female.
    And yet the aforementioned double standard that's always applied to female characters but rarely male ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    It has everything to do with her supposedly being on a hero's journey, but not actually needing it.
    Nothing "supposed" about it; it's literally her story arc for the past two movies. Google the breakdowns, if you want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Training in the Force? Nope.
    Right, Maz didn't tell her how to connect with the Force in TFA, Kylo didn't show her how to use the mind trick by performing it on her in TFA, and Luke didn't teach her anything in TLJ. Oh, wait, they totally did. Moving on. (Also, we know for a fact that many force users can perform certain skills naturally, as stated in the canon Ahsoka novel and shown in the movies; we saw Anakin instinctively use the Force to podrace and Luke taught himself to move things with his mind, like Rey did. That could very well be Rey's natural trick.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Lightsaber training? Nope.
    If you watch, you can see that Rey tries to use what she knows about staff fighting and applies that to the saber (confirmed in the canon TFA novelization). Questionable form, but it does what it needs against a weakened Kylo (and even then, she was losing until connecting with the Force). In TLJ, her only duel was against Snoke's guards and she had Kylo's help. (Remember, she does know melee combat already.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Learning from a trained Force user (Jedi OR Sith) to at least jumpstart her own abilities? Nope.
    Yes. Twice, in fact. Maz tells her how to in TFA (which she uses in her duel with Kylo) and Luke's first lesson for her is an expanded version of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Fixing the Falcon better than Han or Chewie?
    She literally doesn't. She can keep up with them, to be sure, but the compressor was a piece of tech installed after Han lost the Falcon, which gave her more information about it (also worth noting, Han isn't impressed when she "bypasses" it). Beyond that, Chewie is the one to fix the Falcon during the two movies. (Also, it was established that Rey was a mechanic, so it would make sense that she would be good with the ship.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    I can keep going, but I won't.
    Heard it all before, believe you me; there's a reason that "Rey is a Mary Sue" is a theory that's doesn't work without ignoring information from the movies, the rules of the franchise, etc., etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Ahsoka from the animated Clone Wars series is a great character, and from another franchise, Rayla is another great character in the "The Dragon Prince". Those are just for example. Rey, is just an awful character.
    Not convinced, but I'm weird like that.
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  14. #44
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Rey just has a lot of those midi-chlorians in her blood. Like little boy Anakin who can hop into a starship and take out a whole armada single-handed and build C3-PO from scratch.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Starter Set's Avatar
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    The one from Star Trek, Rey is boring as hell, ridiculous and yes, a Mary Sue.

    She's perfect, fails at nothing, knows everything. People comparing Luke to her simply should be laughed out of the room.

    Sure Luke is strong...AFTER YEARS OF TRAINING!! In a new hope he's a noob who even needs obi-wan to land that torpedo, in ESB he's bitch slapped by that snow bear and lose a hand to Vader and yes, finally, in the last movie he's starting to get good. (but still falls to the rancor pits and needs to be saved by Vader.

    Yeah, sure, such a Gary Stu lol. Get out of here.
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