Would you be open to a Bruce Wayne who ISN'T a famous public figure?

[Flash Gordon]

I'd like to get rid of Wayne Enterprises and dial back the wealth of Batman. Let Bruce be a detective who engineers gadgets for himself, and maybe steals money from criminals. Thomas Wayne was a surgeon who made good investments and left his son a nice chunk of change, but not a billion dollar company.

He can be rich, but he shouldn't be a billionaire who's bankrolling everything and everyone. Let Superman build the JL clubhouse with his bare hands, and some help from his robots and Hal Jordan.

[Mr. White]

I'd like to get rid of Wayne Enterprises and dial back the wealth of Batman. Let Bruce be a detective who engineers gadgets for himself, and maybe steals money from criminals. Thomas Wayne was a surgeon who made good investments and left his son a nice chunk of change, but not a billion dollar company.

He can be rich, but he shouldn't be a billionaire who's bankrolling everything and everyone. Let Superman build the JL clubhouse with his bare hands, and some help from his robots and Hal Jordan.

I like your thought process.
While I for one would like him not to be famous, think Earth-One did a good job in tempering it. Maybe because it's still "fresh"...

[Tzigone]

Especially because he doesn't act at all like Batman as Bruce Wayne .

I get what you are saying, I just still find a false personality (beyond hiding vigilante tenancies) completely unnecessary. This isn't early 1800s Los Angels for Zorro, where there were only 700 people in town. There's just too many people for it matter, and the vast majority will have no exposure to either individual and will not know about how many gadgets he has or what they might cost. Even besides that, I just don't see how "normal-acting rich guy Bruce Wayne" is any more a Batman-suspect than "empty-headed shallow idiot Bruce Wayne" - neither is remotely Batman like (beating up criminals, scaring people, and leaving abruptly without saying goodbye). Being famous just means people are more likely to suspect him, because they are more likely to think of him at all - just look at Jack the Ripper suspects as held by the general public.

While he has infinite resources, he can't just use every one of them. Most of them still have to go to the Enterprise, and he still has to keep things a secret.

Speaking of which - there seem to be references to stockholders and such, which would indicates the company is not wholly owned by Bruce Wayne. Which opens such a can of worms in regards to spending Wayne money on Batman stuff. I guess Batman Inc. was a way to get around that, but I didn't like tying himself closer to Batman.

[jetengine]

Did Batman Inc ever deal with the concept that Bruce is now liable to a degree of Batmsns actions since he funds him ? Or delves into the "Ok, so you give him his resources. Neat. Who is he though and why ?"

[Gotham citizen]

I think it is something like the secret identity of Clark Kent: like Superman can't be Clark Kent because he doesn't wear glasses, Bruce Wayne can't be Batman because he doesn't wear a mask.

[Restingvoice]

Did Batman Inc ever deal with the concept that Bruce is now liable to a degree of Batmsns actions since he funds him? Or delves into the "Ok, so you give him his resources. Neat. Who is he though and why ?"

I never actually read it, but someone in this forum said they did tackle that subject in Batman Inc.

In Batman Eternal, Bruce's assets were frozen because Batman's secret weapon stashes all over Gotham was found by Hush and detonated, on top of the Batmobile being taken over, endangering the city

[bat39]

A bit off-topic, but a lot of the suggestions on this thread would work better for Green Arrow IMO.

Oliver Queen has always been a lot less defined as an alter ego than Bruce Wayne has. So there's a lot more freedom to mold him as something other than a billionaire (or ex-billionaire) CEO. Plus (and though this isn't an aspect that I think should define the character), he has traditionally been more of a left-wing character than most other superheroes, and a lot less dependant on fancy gadgets and tech, so stripping down on the Queen family fortune makes a fair bit of sense.

In my version, Robert and Moira Queen were independently wealthy. Robert wasn't much of a businessman and sold the family company, to finance his and Moira's travels across the globe as aviators and explorers. When Oliver was a child, his parents died during one of their expeditions, leaving Oliver a few millions.

Oliver drifted around the world for a bit as a young adult, trying to find his way, when he ended up stranded on the island. After the island ordeal, he became the Green Arrow. He had the money to fund a modest vigilante operation, but at one point loses his small fortune. He sets up a Queen Foundation at some point but has to raise funds. His family's former company, Queen Consolidated, is around and involved in all kinds of corrupt and rapacious practises, often serving as an antagonist to the Green Arrow. In the meantime, Oliver also explores other careers, including politics, media and the hospitality industry.

[Tzigone]

While I do keep Queen much less rich than Wayne, I do like the idea of Oliver involved in a business and seeing his liberal views in how he manages that business (which he must own enough to control, though not own solely).

I've no interest in seeing Queen Industries/Consolidated as the evil company Ollie fights. I really hate that almost every major villain must have a personal connection to the hero's past, and that's what this is. And unless it had good name recognition, it'd probably renamed after sold, anyway, after this many years.

I go the reverse on parents - Thomas inherited, but was uninterested in the business, instead pursing medicine, while Robert and Moira built their company from the ground up (admittedly, I had Robert from a upper-middle or lower-upper class and Moira from a rich movie/tv producer so he could have that Errol Flynn bow that Ollie valued so much so they were starting at a distinct advantage and maybe with her dad giving them a generous loan). And Thomas would have been happy no matter what Bruce wanted to do for a career, basically, while Robert always wanted Ollie to care about the business.

[bat39]

While I do keep Queen much less rich than Wayne, I do like the idea of Oliver involved in a business and seeing his liberal views in how he manages that business (which he must own enough to control, though not own solely).

I've no interest in seeing Queen Industries/Consolidated as the evil company Ollie fights. I really hate that almost every major villain must have a personal connection to the hero's past, and that's what this is. And unless it had good name recognition, it'd probably renamed after sold, anyway, after this many years.

I go the reverse on parents - Thomas inherited, but was uninterested in the business, instead pursing medicine, while Robert and Moira built their company from the ground up (admittedly, I had Robert from a upper-middle or lower-upper class and Moira from a rich movie/tv producer so he could have that Errol Flynn bow that Ollie valued so much so they were starting at a distinct advantage and maybe with her dad giving them a generous loan). And Thomas would have been happy no matter what Bruce wanted to do for a career, basically, while Robert always wanted Ollie to care about the business.

Those are interesting points, especially the contrast between Thomas Wayne and Robert Queen. Maybe Thomas, having felt the weight of the Wayne legacy himself and rebelled against it to an extent, wanted his son to have the freedom to choose his own path, while Robert, having built the business himself, wanted to perpetuate the Queen legacy by passing it on to his son.

Also, I don't necessarily think Queen Consolidated needs to be 'evil'. It could just function like any other corporation, perhaps a tad on the amoral side - and that would be more than enough for it to clash with Oliver's left-wing outlook.

I somehow don't see Oliver as being a CEO or actively running his family company the way Bruce Wayne occasionally does. At the same time, the idea of him coming from money and a family company existing and wielding power and influence over his city is an interesting one. And there have been several instances already in the GA comics and adaptations of the Queen company being run by someone with whom Oliver has friction, if not outright enmity.

Funnily enough, the notion of Oliver Queen actually running a family company is an even newer one than Bruce Wayne running Wayne Enterprises. Back in the Golden Age and Silver Age, Oliver was simply independently wealthy the way Bruce was - with no mention of a family business. I think the first time we actually see Oliver Queen as a businessman is in that iconic Brave and the Bold story which debuted his bearded new look, and shortly after that story he lost his fortune. In the 2000's, following 'Quiver', he became wealthy again due to Stanely Dover's fortune, but the ownership of Queen Industries wasn't really a factor. Its only the New 52 that introduced the idea of Oliver running a family business to contemporary comics, and of course 'Arrow' furthered that as well, up to a point.

In stark contrast, Wayne Enterprises is a pretty major and well-established element of the Batman mythos. Its prominently been featured in most of the movies, especially the Nolanverse and BvS. Its been in the cartoons. Its a major element in the comics and the TV show (the current 'Batwoman' show for instance). So getting rid of it would be a lot harder.

[gregpersons]

Great points all around. Fun to think about.

In stark contrast, Wayne Enterprises is a pretty major and well-established element of the Batman mythos. Its prominently been featured in most of the movies, especially the Nolanverse and BvS. Its been in the cartoons. Its a major element in the comics and the TV show (the current 'Batwoman' show for instance). So getting rid of it would be a lot harder.

This is true. The flip side is that it also creates an opportunity to shake the formula up a little bit without betraying the core fundamentals. Not predicting that's what Matt Reeves' The Batman will do, but it's possible they could do something that's a bit different.

I don't recall -- is there a Wayne Enterprises in the Burton/Keaton films? I know there is in Batman Forever, and that Bruce meets with Max Shreck as a businessman, but I'm not sure there's a business he's running. I think he's just a wealthy do-nothing.

[bat39]

Great points all around. Fun to think about.



This is true. The flip side is that it also creates an opportunity to shake the formula up a little bit without betraying the core fundamentals. Not predicting that's what Matt Reeves' The Batman will do, but it's possible they could do something that's a bit different.

I don't recall -- is there a Wayne Enterprises in the Burton/Keaton films? I know there is in Batman Forever, and that Bruce meets with Max Shreck as a businessman, but I'm not sure there's a business he's running. I think he's just a wealthy do-nothing.

You're right...Wayne Enterprises isn't really mentioned in the Burton/Keaton films. Nor is there any reference made to Bruce having to go to an office or having a family company. He does seem to have some sort of a place on the City Council, since we see that he was supposed to attend a press conference alongside Gordon and Dent.

The Schumacher films on the other hand made Wayne Enterprises an integral part of the story, as well as Bruce Wayne's personal involvement in the company.

[Schumiac]

I like my Bruce rich. It gives an explanation for the funds of his multi gadgets and extracurricular activities. Wayne Manor is part of who he is. The Wayne history and being an important part of Gotham is who he is, for me. Then there is the fact in this time and age, you DO need to fight the battle on the business-side too and Wayne Enterprises is one way for him to do that. I always liked that aspect, that he wasn't just a guy who goes out at nights to punch criminals. There is more to him than that. Also I feel the fame and him being an important part of the society leads to him having social responsibilities and appareances he can't always run away from. I fear, if he was made to be not much of a public figure with not so many connections it would be an excuse for Dc to limit Bruce's time even more, as he would be a nobody.

I dont care for the "idiot rich playboy" thing and never thought Bruce Wayne had to act like that. He can be a serious, down-to-earth, famous multi-billonaire. His money is also not the reason for why he is Bat-God which btw needs to cease. Basically, for me, his money is the least of his problems.

[johnpeelgothisgun]

His money is also not the reason for why he is Bat-God which btw needs to cease. Basically, for me, his money is the least of his problems.

The money isn't *why* he's Batgod, but to me it will always be a part of the formula that lead to Batgod: the continual upping of the ante.

Just to clarify my stance: The larger Bruce's stories are, the larger his operation will have to be, and the vaster his resources will in turn have to be: more money, more gadgets, more allies. The more intimate exchanges with smaller threats (as in the Ratcatcher story line I cited) interest me, personally, far more than most of the apocalyptic scenarios. I'm highlighting the Ratcatcher here for the reason that he provides a striking contrast to Bruce: Each has his own concept of justice that he pursues obsessively, come hell or highwater. The "beats up his rogues" line in my first post was meant half in jest, as an illustration of a Batman who *can't* be expected to fight THE war on crime, but can only do so much.

On the flip side: I'd have liked Snyder's Zero Year story line more had it been a more basic meeting of minds between the Riddler and Batman and not No Man's Land crammed into a month. But obviously the story I want to read isn't the one Snyder has to write. His interests are generally in line with a grander scale. There's a lot I do like in Snyder's epic work, but my favorite Snyder Batbook is the more subdued "The Black Mirror."

It isn't about sacrificing the probing questions, but about how we approach them.

I'm not about to pretend that my ideal of a scaled-down Batman is commercially viable, of course.

[gregpersons]

The money isn't *why* he's Batgod, but to me it will always be a part of the formula that lead to Batgod: the continual upping of the ante.

They definitely go hand-in-hand. There's a correlation there. As Bruce's status has assumed more wealth/power — in the way his family history has expanded backward, the way Wayne Enterprises has expanded its role in Batman and Gotham's overall operation, that he's a celebrity with regular media coverage — so too has Batman become more omnipotent.

[John Venus]

I don't recall -- is there a Wayne Enterprises in the Burton/Keaton films? I know there is in Batman Forever, and that Bruce meets with Max Shreck as a businessman, but I'm not sure there's a business he's running. I think he's just a wealthy do-nothing.

You're right...Wayne Enterprises isn't really mentioned in the Burton/Keaton films. Nor is there any reference made to Bruce having to go to an office or having a family company. He does seem to have some sort of a place on the City Council, since we see that he was supposed to attend a press conference alongside Gordon and Dent.

The Schumacher films on the other hand made Wayne Enterprises an integral part of the story, as well as Bruce Wayne's personal involvement in the company.

In '89 Batman, the Wayne's were rich but not celebrities. Knox and Vicki spent most of the movie investigating Bruce Wayne before they even learn about the Wayne murders. Bruce Wayne throws a party and most people don't even recognize him.

Bruce's duality was a big part of the Burton movies. Wayne Enterprises didn't really factor in the first movie but in the second one, you had Max Shrek, a corrupt businessman who served as a rival of sorts to Bruce Wayne. Shreck wanted to built a power plant (though he had more sinister and greedy reasons for it) with Bruce Wayne and the mayor opposing it. In Batman Forever, Riddler was obsessed with Bruce Wayne while Batman dealt with Two Face. In Batman and Robin, you didn't see the corporate side but Freeze helped served the Bruce Wayne arc (the whole Alfred dying part) whilst Ivy and Bane fought Batman.

Like I said in another thread, the movies in general follow a trend of having a Bruce Wayne villain and a Batman villain. Having unethical and downright corrupt businessmen and officials opposite Bruce Wayne could serve the mythology well. Show where their similarities and end and where their differences begin. Flesh out the upper class of Gotham and show how they serve as an obstacle to building a better Gotham.

As for the topic at hand, yes, I would be fine with a more anonymous Bruce Wayne. Plenty of rich people who stay out of the spotlight. I remember watching a video of Bob Iger on Jimmy Kimmel and lots of people remarked that it's their first time seeing the guy and had no idea how he looked like. If I had any say in how the Bat mythology is written, I would have Wayne Enterprises as one of the many companies operating in Gotham. Wealthy but still have to watch out for Daggett Industries/GothCorp/Powers Technology/Grant Walker's Industries. The Wayne Family murder wasn't a huge event like the Kennedy assassination, it's something that happened one day, dominated the news cycles for a few weeks then every one moved onto something else. In this day and age of social media Bruce Wayne would be under constant media surveillance and wouldn't have been able to become Batman if the Wayne's were basically royalty. Bruce Wayne would need some anonymity to pull off the years of training and transformation into Batman. I would take it a step further and have Bruce Wayne run Wayne Foundation using his wealth on charitable causes while Lucius runs Wayne Enterprises as CEO but Bruce holds majority so he has some say in how the business is run. Billionaires are largely people who hoard wealth, the amount of wealth they accumulate become something to brag about. If Bruce Wayne is constantly spending his wealth on stuff like Justice League satellites, donating to hospitals, clinics and universities, he would be on the verge of falling from billionaire to millionaire, which would be in keeping with the character. While in reality it's difficult to imagine rich guy being this charitable, I think it's possible to allow some leeway in fiction. Other rich guys, including Luthor would look down on Bruce Wayne. Seeing him as a well meaning idiot giving away too much money and not using it 'the right way'. This extends to Bruce's public persona. However, the people who work closely with Bruce at Wayne Enterprises know that he is far smarter than most people think. Even Lex eventually comes to realize that Bruce Wayne is no idiot and may in fact be a wise man playing the fool.