Did Abrams and Disney Just Toss The Last Jedi And Rian Under The Bus?

[BeastieRunner]

To change the negative mood of this thread -

Have I mentioned one of my favorite aspects of Star Wars is Stromtrooper armor design? I call Imperial Stormtroopers "Skull Faces" and First Order Stormtroopers "Smiley Faces". I like "Smiley Face" ones better than "Skull Face" ones due to the former possessing cleaner angles and more rounded chest plates.

I like all the troopers. Clone, Storm, FO, they all have nice looks.

As much as I prefer the OG ... I might like the FO designs better.

[Anthony W]

Given how often we get a TLJ/Rian Johnson hate circle jerk I feel like it needs its own sticky thread.

You're making the common mistake of thinking that criticism equals hate.

Wow, some people are really desperate to hate Rian Johnson.

By "some people" I take it you mean the actors that are in The Last Jedi? Or are you going to accuse The New York Times of trolling?

[WebLurker]

By "some people" I take it you mean the actors that are in The Last Jedi? Or are you going to accuse The New York Times of trolling?

Neither, actually.

[Donald]

Given how often we get a TLJ/Rian Johnson hate circle jerk I feel like it needs its own sticky thread.

If it's a good enough circle jerk, it will sticky it's self.

[Anthony W]

Neither, actually.

Well, while you are trying to sort that out (good luck with that) here is something from the other side of the fence that you might like.


STAR WARS Actors Could Try Being Positive About The Movies They're Promoting https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12...eyre-promoting

Fun excerpt from the article....
"In case you’ve missed it, the Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker press tour is well underway, in advance of next week’s release, and perhaps in response to the ridiculously overblown controversy over The Last Jedi’s bold story choices, everyone be dumpin' on The Last Jedi. John Boyega referred to the film’s creative choices as “a bit iffy,” craving more story for Finn and a stronger dynamic between the various new lead characters. Director JJ Abrams softly criticised Rian Johnson’s “meta approach” to the film, saying “I don’t think that people go to Star Wars to be told, ‘This doesn’t matter.’” Mark Hamill has gone on the record many times about Luke’s journey, often mentioning that he wished Luke had more scenes with the other original-trilogy characters. Everyone seems to have thinly-veiled criticisms about the last film (or two, in Hamill’s case), the implication being that no, this one will be better.

Honestly, it’s a shitty look. "

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think the promotion of TRoS is trying to bait TLJ haters into seeing the movie. That's all there is.

As for whether they are throwing Johnson under the bus, the answer is yes. I personally think Abrams' comments are really petty and self-serving...and if I were Rian Johnson I'd feel well within my rights to take offense at that. Because Abrams is directly attacking Rian Johnson for being meta (as if TFA or anything Abrams did before wasn't).

In the case of John Boyega thought, I really understand why he felt that way:
-- He was basically the male lead of The Force Awakens.
-- The story was setting up some kind of romance between Finn and Rey.
-- He got to wield a lightsaber at the end.

In The Last Jedi
-- He's basically the star of a go-nowhere subplot without any connection to the plot.
-- His characterisation has somewhat backslided.
-- He's a satellite to a new character introduced and basically constantly talked down to and shown up by new character.
-- The movie's end forces him into a romance with new character, an actress with whom he had no obvious chemistry with until that moment.

So I can see why Boyega feels upset. From his point of view, TLJ kind of undermined his character in a big way. He went from being a character who was a sorta-Han and sorta-Luke into Lobot.

His point that Han and Leia felt like the co-leads and a true trio in the OT and that feeling is less so after TLJ is pretty astute and inarguable. The emotional center of The Force Awakens, is Rey's relationship with Finn, and also Finn and Poe's instant bond at the start. Rather than doubling down on that, TLJ gives too much attention and focus to new characters that Johnson created.

[WebLurker]

Well, while you are trying to sort that out (good luck with that) here is something from the other side of the fence that you might like.

I do actually know exactly what I think on the subject.


STAR WARS Actors Could Try Being Positive About The Movies They're Promoting https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12...eyre-promoting

Fun excerpt from the article....
"In case you’ve missed it, the Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker press tour is well underway, in advance of next week’s release, and perhaps in response to the ridiculously overblown controversy over The Last Jedi’s bold story choices, everyone be dumpin' on The Last Jedi. John Boyega referred to the film’s creative choices as “a bit iffy,” craving more story for Finn and a stronger dynamic between the various new lead characters. Director JJ Abrams softly criticised Rian Johnson’s “meta approach” to the film, saying “I don’t think that people go to Star Wars to be told, ‘This doesn’t matter.’” Mark Hamill has gone on the record many times about Luke’s journey, often mentioning that he wished Luke had more scenes with the other original-trilogy characters. Everyone seems to have thinly-veiled criticisms about the last film (or two, in Hamill’s case), the implication being that no, this one will be better.

Honestly, it’s a shitty look. "[/QUOTE]

[Beaddle]

JJ Abrams has always been a jump on the bandwagon kind of guy, bowing to pressure. Not surprised he threw Last Jedi under the bus, he did the same with star trek into darkness when there was fan backlash with the film.

At the end of the day he should keep his feelings for last jedi personal or just be vague. throwing it under the bus, only hurts rise of skywalker.

[motherofpearl1]

I think the promotion of TRoS is trying to bait TLJ haters into seeing the movie. That's all there is.

As for whether they are throwing Johnson under the bus, the answer is yes. I personally think Abrams' comments are really petty and self-serving...and if I were Rian Johnson I'd feel well within my rights to take offense at that. Because Abrams is directly attacking Rian Johnson for being meta (as if TFA or anything Abrams did before wasn't).

In the case of John Boyega thought, I really understand why he felt that way:
-- He was basically the male lead of The Force Awakens.
-- The story was setting up some kind of romance between Finn and Rey.
-- He got to wield a lightsaber at the end.

In The Last Jedi
-- He's basically the star of a go-nowhere subplot without any connection to the plot.
-- His characterisation has somewhat backslided.
-- He's a satellite to a new character introduced and basically constantly talked down to and shown up by new character.
-- The movie's end forces him into a romance with new character, an actress with whom he had no obvious chemistry with until that moment.

So I can see why Boyega feels upset. From his point of view, TLJ kind of undermined his character in a big way. He went from being a character who was a sorta-Han and sorta-Luke into Lobot.

His point that Han and Leia felt like the co-leads and a true trio in the OT and that feeling is less so after TLJ is pretty astute and inarguable. The emotional center of The Force Awakens, is Rey's relationship with Finn, and also Finn and Poe's instant bond at the start. Rather than doubling down on that, TLJ gives too much attention and focus to new characters that Johnson created.

I did actually see a comment by JB in which he said there was never any intention of making Finn and Rey a romantic couple. I'm glad, because although John and Daisy Ridley have a genuine chemistry, it's far more like that between two friends than lovers. There's no sexual chemistry there at all.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

STAR WARS Actors Could Try Being Positive About The Movies They're Promoting https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12...eyre-promoting

The article is kind of wrong-headed. Fact is actors and others should be allowed to speak with candor. And SW fans are hypocritical, nobody goes after Gary Kurtz and others for talking smack about Lucas and the prequels after all. John Boyega has a right to feel "iffy" about TLJ and a right to share it. I think Abrams should be a little more smooth and diplomatic but that's about it.

I did actually see a comment by JB in which he said there was never any intention of making Finn and Rey a romantic couple. I'm glad, because although John and Daisy Ridley have a genuine chemistry, it's far more like that between two friends than lovers. There's no sexual chemistry there at all.

In any case there's no chemistry between Kelly Tran and Boyega, and a romance between them makes, even less sense in TLJ.The fact is their friendship was defining. Finn and Rey changed for each other. In the finale of TFA, Rey ignites her lightsaber and fights Kylo after he maims Finn. Whereas TLJ has Rey kind of trying to redeem the guy who did that to him. It's just bizarre.

And from Boyega's point of view, he's the most prominent black character in Star Wars history, he got to be an outright lead which Lando and Mace Windu weren't, and in TLJ his character is downgraded from that, a fact which didn't get much commentary at the time. I mean most of TLJ is about a black guy and a latinx man being talked down to by women while the white alpha male (Kylo Ren) gets to talk down to the girl (telling her she came from nothing) and so on. So intersectionality-wise, it's pretty dodgy optics.

The problem with TLJ is that the discourse over it is pretty extreme. Either people are saying it's the worst or people are saying it's the "Best since Empire". My feeling is that it's a good competent solid film...with largely nothing to say, and pretty incoherent in execution of certain narrative ideas. I think the movie bit off more than it could chew. Mind you I still think it's better than The Force Awakens and better than Rogue One and other Disney-stuff. But I don't think it's remotely as good as the OT and yes, even the PT. On an aesthetic level and technical level, the prequels are leaps and bounds ahead of the ST.

The problem is precisely this "Best since Empire" nonsense since TLJ is trying to be that. In doing so, it totally misread and misunderstood ESB. Empire Strikes Back is the only SW movie without major character deaths. The movie is not as dark and edgy as people think it was, not even remotely. It's also a very small-scale movie and not an epic war movie by any means. Whereas TLJ goes big and overboard. Rather than narrow the cast (as ESB did) it expands it to ridiculous levels, and where ESB was content to be a middle-part and not drive characters to climax and beyond, TLJ basically goes to ridiculous levels to close out stuff for the final part.

On one hand, I can understand Rian Johnson thinking that he's going in with his only shot to do Star Wars and is doing all he can at once but on the other hand I can understand why some would think he's not serving the larger story being told as both John Boyega and maybe Abrams hint at.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

The article is kind of wrong-headed. Fact is actors and others should be allowed to speak with candor. And SW fans are hypocritical, nobody goes after Gary Kurtz and others for talking smack about Lucas and the prequels after all. John Boyega has a right to feel "iffy" about TLJ and a right to share it. I think Abrams should be a little more smooth and diplomatic but that's about it.



In any case there's no chemistry between Kelly Tran and Boyega, and a romance between them makes, even less sense in TLJ.The fact is their friendship was defining. Finn and Rey changed for each other. In the finale of TFA, Rey ignites her lightsaber and fights Kylo after he maims Finn. Whereas TLJ has Rey kind of trying to redeem the guy who did that to him. It's just bizarre.

And from Boyega's point of view, he's the most prominent black character in Star Wars history, he got to be an outright lead which Lando and Mace Windu weren't, and in TLJ his character is downgraded from that, a fact which didn't get much commentary at the time. I mean most of TLJ is about a black guy and a latinx man being talked down to by women while the white alpha male (Kylo Ren) gets to talk down to the girl (telling her she came from nothing) and so on. So intersectionality-wise, it's pretty dodgy optics.

The problem with TLJ is that the discourse over it is pretty extreme. Either people are saying it's the worst or people are saying it's the "Best since Empire". My feeling is that it's a good competent solid film...with largely nothing to say, and pretty incoherent in execution of certain narrative ideas. I think the movie bit off more than it could chew. Mind you I still think it's better than The Force Awakens and better than Rogue One and other Disney-stuff. But I don't think it's remotely as good as the OT and yes, even the PT. On an aesthetic level and technical level, the prequels are leaps and bounds ahead of the ST.

The problem is precisely this "Best since Empire" nonsense since TLJ is trying to be that. In doing so, it totally misread and misunderstood ESB. Empire Strikes Back is the only SW movie without major character deaths. The movie is not as dark and edgy as people think it was, not even remotely. It's also a very small-scale movie and not an epic war movie by any means. Whereas TLJ goes big and overboard. Rather than narrow the cast (as ESB did) it expands it to ridiculous levels, and where ESB was content to be a middle-part and not drive characters to climax and beyond, TLJ basically goes to ridiculous levels to close out stuff for the final part.

On one hand, I can understand Rian Johnson thinking that he's going in with his only shot to do Star Wars and is doing all he can at once but on the other hand I can understand why some would think he's not serving the larger story being told as both John Boyega and maybe Abrams hint at.

See, this is what really confuses me. Last Jedi is by far the most thematically rich Star Wars film. No, I don't think it's as good as the OT (though I think it's probably the best of the films after that) but its story of finding hope in defeat is beautifully handled throughout the film and the way it subverts expectations IS important. The Finn/ Rose subplot is especially interesting because while it may be my least favourite part of the film (though, seriously, the whole Canto Brite sequence lasts like ten minutes in total), it's a perfect encapsulation of how TLJ is actually about something. It's about how sometimes the good guys don't always win but out of that defeat can come a new hope, as embodied by the final few seconds of the film. Also tied into that final coda is the idea that Luke failed because he allowed himself to become over-confident by his status as a legend but along with Luke coming to understand that it is precisely his failures and weaknesses that make him who he is as a teacher and as a man, he creates a new legend that, because it has transcended his own ego, proves to be a force for hope in the Resistance picking itself after its crushing defeat and maybe, just maybe, ensuring that neither Luke nor Rey turns out to be the last Jedi.

I used to think that this is a weird way to go for a middle installment but, actually, it gives JJ so much room to really deliver on what Rian sets up here. So, yeah, I do think it's rather churlish to throw Last Jedi under the bus while promoting Rise of Skywalker.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

See, this is what really confuses me. Last Jedi is by far the most thematically rich Star Wars film.

"Thematically rich" is this vague term thrown around a lot and when used it's impossible to argue against, and can be used to define anything.

I don't think TLJ is thematically rich. What I understand of that as far as cinema goes, is that term is used to refer to a movie where the visuals, props, aesthetics, and settings communicate something deep and meaningful. Like for instance the fact that the Prequels are so colorful, vibrant, and excessive in its visual imagination and execution helps to convey the diverse pluralistic world of the Republic and how different it was compared to the drab world of the Empire, and that's a case where Lucas as a film-maker is communicating entirely by cinematic themes the decline of democracy to totalitarianism. Like in Attack of the Clones you have settings like a 50s style bar in Coruscant, you have a Hong Kong Style Blade Runner skyline with flying cars, you have neon and stuff. Whereas the only location in the OT that looks like that is Cloud City or Bespin in ESB (which is pointedly not yet in Empire control so is able to have aesthetic freedom). So that's a case where Lucas maintained stylistic and thematic consistency across his movies.

In the case of TLJ and also TFA, the galaxy still looks virtually the same as it did 20 years before which implies that nothing meaningful was done with the New Republic in the interim so that indicates that the film-makers didn't put any great deal of thought in world-building and style and looks. There's no sense whatsoever about what the Restored Republic means and what the First Order stands for. It's just a vacuous stage background.

but its story of finding hope in defeat

But we don't really get any sense of defeat in the movie. Rey doesn't lose a limb to Kylo the way Luke lost a limb to Vader. Despite the Rebellion losing forces, everyone's all smiles in the cockpit at the end with Leia saying "We have everything we need" (okay I guess it's a pity that Holdo, Luke, and all the other rebel soldiers who got whacked and so on aren't needed...good to have that confirmed).

the way it subverts expectations IS important

Lucas subverted expectations when after fans built a cult about the ultimate tragic badass that Vader was, he revealed him to be the pathetic, whiny loser who went out to buy cigarettes for Palpatine and made the chosen one of his entire series a total wuss and lackey. That's subversive. Not TLJ.

It's about how sometimes the good guys don't always win but out of that defeat can come a new hope, as embodied by the final few seconds of the film.

Also the theme of Revenge of the Sith which is the absolute low point of the entire saga with the end of the republic, the mass killings of Jedi, the total damnation of Vader, the exile and defeat of Yoda, and despite that the ending is on Tatooine with the Binary Sunset.

Ditto for ESB.

Also tied into that final coda is the idea that Luke failed because he allowed himself to become over-confident by his status as a legend but along with Luke coming to understand that it is precisely his failures and weaknesses that make him who he is as a teacher and as a man, he creates a new legend that, because it has transcended his own ego, proves to be a force for hope in the Resistance picking itself after its crushing defeat and maybe, just maybe, ensuring that neither Luke nor Rey turns out to be the last Jedi.

What it is is propaganda built on a lie. The movie makes Luke Skywalker primarily responsible for Kylo Ren and in the end the lie of Luke's projection becomes the "legend" hiding the reality that Luke spent his final years in shame and humiliation at betraying the teachings of Obi-Wan and Yoda (neither of whom would ever have raised a lightsaber on any padawan, no matter how dark or suspicious they are of them).

I think the end with Luke Skywalker becoming a legend is merely Rian Johnson doing CYA and stopping short of going all the way with what he intended. It's basically him pulling his punches. And if he pulled his punch at the end, that beggars the question why he didn't just give people the Luke Skywalker they wanted (the same way Abrams gave everyone the Han Solo they wanted in TFA)?

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

See, this is what really confuses me. Last Jedi is by far the most thematically rich Star Wars film. No, I don't think it's as good as the OT (though I think it's probably the best of the films after that) but its story of finding hope in defeat is beautifully handled throughout the film and the way it subverts expectations IS important. The Finn/ Rose subplot is especially interesting because while it may be my least favourite part of the film (though, seriously, the whole Canto Brite sequence lasts like ten minutes in total), it's a perfect encapsulation of how TLJ is actually about something. It's about how sometimes the good guys don't always win but out of that defeat can come a new hope, as embodied by the final few seconds of the film. Also tied into that final coda is the idea that Luke failed because he allowed himself to become over-confident by his status as a legend but along with Luke coming to understand that it is precisely his failures and weaknesses that make him who he is as a teacher and as a man, he creates a new legend that, because it has transcended his own ego, proves to be a force for hope in the Resistance picking itself after its crushing defeat and maybe, just maybe, ensuring that neither Luke nor Rey turns out to be the last Jedi.

I used to think that this is a weird way to go for a middle installment but, actually, it gives JJ so much room to really deliver on what Rian sets up here. So, yeah, I do think it's rather churlish to throw Last Jedi under the bus while promoting Rise of Skywalker.

Personally I found TLJ Luke post Kylo to be much more arrogant then pre-Kylo. For me the tent scene overwhelms the his stand down against the walkers.

PS: What does Churlish mean? This is the first time I've ever seen that word.

[WebLurker]

"Thematically rich" is this vague term thrown around a lot and when used it's impossible to argue against, and can be used to define anything.

And if he pulled his punch at the end, that beggars the question why he didn't just give people the Luke Skywalker they wanted (the same way Abrams gave everyone the Han Solo they wanted in TFA)?

Having read the Legends tie-ins, I am well aware of the Luke Skywalker those people wanted. TLJ Luke was the superior version in terms of depth, story arc, character development, etc. Johnson dared to give us a Luke who failed and Mark Hamil his best performance of the character to date.

[Agent Z]

Well, while you are trying to sort that out (good luck with that) here is something from the other side of the fence that you might like.


STAR WARS Actors Could Try Being Positive About The Movies They're Promoting https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12...eyre-promoting

Fun excerpt from the article....
"In case you’ve missed it, the Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker press tour is well underway, in advance of next week’s release, and perhaps in response to the ridiculously overblown controversy over The Last Jedi’s bold story choices, everyone be dumpin' on The Last Jedi. John Boyega referred to the film’s creative choices as “a bit iffy,” craving more story for Finn and a stronger dynamic between the various new lead characters. Director JJ Abrams softly criticised Rian Johnson’s “meta approach” to the film, saying “I don’t think that people go to Star Wars to be told, ‘This doesn’t matter.’” Mark Hamill has gone on the record many times about Luke’s journey, often mentioning that he wished Luke had more scenes with the other original-trilogy characters. Everyone seems to have thinly-veiled criticisms about the last film (or two, in Hamill’s case), the implication being that no, this one will be better.

Honestly, it’s a shitty look. "

So saying you wished your part in a movie was slightly better is unprofessional now?