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  1. #61
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    There's a sense of Rian boxing then into such a narrative corner with his film that they clearly were trying to get themselves out of it.

    But this movie also has tons of problems all it's own, quite "impressive" in a weird way.

    They clearly had zero firm plan of where to go with this trilogy and were winging it the whole time.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Sure, but with the OT, the different screenwriters and directors were still executing Lucas' vision.
    Now they are executing Disney's vision!

    On a serious note, the common thread between the OT was Larry Kasdan. They definitely needed something similar with this trilogy. It all should have been set in stone. Too many cooks and all that...

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Now they are executing Disney's vision!

    On a serious note, the common thread between the OT was Larry Kasdan. They definitely needed something similar with this trilogy. It all should have been set in stone. Too many cooks and all that...
    Yeah, I think so. Although at the end of the day I've still gotten a lot of enjoyment from the ST, warts and all, and I'm excited to see ROS. Whether I love it or not I'll always be grateful for Star Wars!

    And I'm hoping ROS will end on a satisfactory note for fans and detractors of TLJ (as well as those who neither love nor hate it)...

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Now they are executing Disney's vision!

    On a serious note, the common thread between the OT was Larry Kasdan. They definitely needed something similar with this trilogy. It all should have been set in stone. Too many cooks and all that...
    Well Kasdan shot himself with Solo. That was all him. He chose Lord and Miller.m, the script was him.

    He also has no real interest in the story outside of Han Solo. H said a number of times that he struggled with Luke. And if you read Rinzler’s making of books which has transcripts of tapes recorded sessions between him and Lucas, most of his work on ESB involved just sharpening stuff Lucas gave him.

    People need to accept that the Star Wars movies is about 95% Lucas. He was the guy with the vision and ideas and nobody can take his place.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 12-18-2019 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Well Kasdan shot himself with Solo. That was all him. He chose Lord and Miller.m, the script was him.

    He also has no real interest in the story outside of Han Solo. H said a number of times that he struggled with Luke. And if you read Rinzler’s making of books which has transcripts of rape recorded sessions between him and Lucas, most of his work on ESB involved just sharpening stuff Lucas gave him.

    People need to accept that the Star Wars movies is about 95% Lucas. He was the guy with the vision and ideas and nobody can take his place.
    True. But Lucas was always a great "ideas" man. Damn good director, too. His major weakness was dialogue. He works best when others temper his excesses.

    Solo was actually developed by Lucas himself. It was part of the "package" of films he set in motion to sweeten the deal for Disney. He hired Kasdan to flesh it out, but he was tied up with TFA. The final script is all his son's work (although Larry may have given it the once over).

    Not sure about hiring them (the final decision is Kennedy's). But Kasdan and Kennedy were both instrumental in their firing (both feeling that they weren't delivering what they wanted).

    Solo was always going to be a hard sell with audiences because it was a Solo movie without Harrison. It would be like doing a Rocky movie without Stallone or Dirty Harry without Clint Eastwood. Doesn't excuse the problems with it by any means (which are many).

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    True. But Lucas was always a great "ideas" man. Damn good director, too. His major weakness was dialogue. He works best when others temper his excesses.
    Nobody ever tempered Lucas’ excesses. Not even once. Nobody was in a position to do so. The Lucas who made the OT was the same one who made the PT, working in the same way or manner.

    Anyway writing a movie involves more than dialogues. It includes scenes, setting, tone, genre, character creation, development of character arcs.

    Here’s a short list of all Lucas did on ESB. He wrote the story treatment which included the characters of Yoda and Lando complete with their character arcs. He decided on splitting up the party and intercutting them. He decided on the Han/Leia romance. Oh and the plot twist at the end. Kasdan and Kershner didn’t do any of that. They did touch up and round it up but that’s it. They worked within what Lucas gave them and did not go past it, nor did they feel the need to do so. There’s a reason Kershner said that the movie was George’s and why he approved the special editions. Lucas also set the tone. He wanted ESB to feel like a horror movie since it’s a movie where nothing happens in big plot terms i.e. no characters die. So it had to be more psychological and interior. He told them to see the Exorcist a few times to get into the mood.

    So who restrained Lucas there?

    As for dialogue, Lucas is weak at writing romantic dialogue and as an older man at the time of the PT, he didn’t quite get how teenage angst worked realistically. But the other kinds of dialogue and characters he got right. Palpatine especially.

    The best and richest dialogue scene in the movies was by Lucas - Darth Plagueis the Wise, Yoda, Qui-Gonn and others.

    He could also wrote these lines:
    - "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause?"/

    More importantly, Lucas' dialogue is memorable, easy to follow in character and plot terms. And for Star Wars that's all you need. The general standard of dialogue in STAR WARS is in literary terms quite a bit behind...say, comic books, even stuff like ESB and so on. The dialogue is rarely very sophisticated.

    The dialogue is pitched for an all-ages audience, so that anyone can get it. It's not too jargon-heavy that it's totally inaccessible.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 12-18-2019 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #67
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    Wonder if ROS will replace TLJ (and the prequels and ROTJ before it) as the favorite target of unhappy fans?

    And will they have more "legitimate" complaints then being mad that their Snoke theories didn't matter?
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Nobody ever tempered Lucas’ excesses. Not even once. Nobody was in a position to do so. The Lucas who made the OT was the same one who made the PT, working in the same way or manner.

    Anyway writing a movie involves more than dialogues. It includes scenes, setting, tone, genre, character creation, development of character arcs.

    Here’s a short list of all Lucas did on ESB. He wrote the story treatment which included the characters of Yoda and Lando complete with their character arcs. He decided on splitting up the party and intercutting them. He decided on the Han/Leia romance. Oh and the plot twist at the end. Kasdan and Kershner didn’t do any of that. They did touch up and round it up but that’s it. They worked within what Lucas gave them and did not go past it, nor did they feel the need to do so. There’s a reason Kershner said that the movie was George’s and why he approved the special editions. Lucas also set the tone. He wanted ESB to feel like a horror movie since it’s a movie where nothing happens in big plot terms i.e. no characters die. So it had to be more psychological and interior. He told them to see the Exorcist a few times to get into the mood.

    So who restrained Lucas there?

    As for dialogue, Lucas is weak at writing romantic dialogue and as an older man at the time of the PT, he didn’t quite get how teenage angst worked realistically. But the other kinds of dialogue and characters he got right. Palpatine especially.

    The best and richest dialogue scene in the movies was by Lucas - Darth Plagueis the Wise, Yoda, Qui-Gonn and others.

    He could also wrote these lines:
    - "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause?"/

    More importantly, Lucas' dialogue is memorable, easy to follow in character and plot terms. And for Star Wars that's all you need. The general standard of dialogue in STAR WARS is in literary terms quite a bit behind...say, comic books, even stuff like ESB and so on. The dialogue is rarely very sophisticated.

    The dialogue is pitched for an all-ages audience, so that anyone can get it. It's not too jargon-heavy that it's totally inaccessible.
    Spielberg did on Indiana Jones. Kasdan polished the scripts for the OT (something he didn't do on the prequels and it showed). Good dialogue is sharp, naturalistic and stems from characterization. Its where most modern films go wrong because writers have a tendency to have people talk in jokes or one-liners.

    The prequels have their good points (ROTS being the best out of them), but dialogue is not one of them.
    Last edited by Somecrazyaussie; 12-18-2019 at 03:52 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Spielberg did on Indiana Jones.
    Spielberg and Lucas were largely in synch and there was no sense of him overwriting Lucas or anything.

    Kasdan polished the scripts for the OT (something he didn't do on the prequels and it showed).
    Kasdan only worked on ESB and ROTJ, and not on ANH. So he didn't do it for the OT.

    In the case of the PT, I believe he was one of many who turned Lucas down when he asked them to join in. The reason is simply that Kasdan wasn't too invested in Star Wars beyond Han Solo and the more grounded characters. Whereas the PT was the story of the Jedi.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Nobody ever tempered Lucas’ excesses. Not even once. Nobody was in a position to do so. The Lucas who made the OT was the same one who made the PT, working in the same way or manner.

    Anyway writing a movie involves more than dialogues. It includes scenes, setting, tone, genre, character creation, development of character arcs.

    Here’s a short list of all Lucas did on ESB. He wrote the story treatment which included the characters of Yoda and Lando complete with their character arcs. He decided on splitting up the party and intercutting them. He decided on the Han/Leia romance. Oh and the plot twist at the end. Kasdan and Kershner didn’t do any of that. They did touch up and round it up but that’s it. They worked within what Lucas gave them and did not go past it, nor did they feel the need to do so. There’s a reason Kershner said that the movie was George’s and why he approved the special editions. Lucas also set the tone. He wanted ESB to feel like a horror movie since it’s a movie where nothing happens in big plot terms i.e. no characters die. So it had to be more psychological and interior. He told them to see the Exorcist a few times to get into the mood.

    So who restrained Lucas there?

    As for dialogue, Lucas is weak at writing romantic dialogue and as an older man at the time of the PT, he didn’t quite get how teenage angst worked realistically. But the other kinds of dialogue and characters he got right. Palpatine especially.

    The best and richest dialogue scene in the movies was by Lucas - Darth Plagueis the Wise, Yoda, Qui-Gonn and others.

    He could also wrote these lines:
    - "So this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause?"/

    More importantly, Lucas' dialogue is memorable, easy to follow in character and plot terms. And for Star Wars that's all you need. The general standard of dialogue in STAR WARS is in literary terms quite a bit behind...say, comic books, even stuff like ESB and so on. The dialogue is rarely very sophisticated.

    The dialogue is pitched for an all-ages audience, so that anyone can get it. It's not too jargon-heavy that it's totally inaccessible.
    A lot of revisionist history on Lucas in that post.

    GL himself said he was a better idea man and was reigned in during the OT.
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  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    A lot of revisionist history on Lucas in that post.
    It's not revisionist history. It's in fact the orthodox history understood in the '70s. The real revisionist is this nonsense put out by RLM and others that Lucas is an idiot who failed upwards.

    My stuff is backed by research. Reading interviews contemporary to the '70s (and so uncontaminated by later recollections), books like Rinzler's Making of Books, Paul Hirsch's book on editing Star Wars, interviews with Ben Burtt (Lucas' most important collaborator by far). Interviews with Thom Andersen, Lucas' classmate.

    GL himself said he was a better idea man and was reigned in during the OT.
    He's being modest and self-effacing. Lucas is pretty thick-skinned. He's well within his power to say, shut down those RLM videos and remove it from the internet. Instead, he lets them stand. He has also been a good sport about parody and so on.

    I mean when Gary Kurtz talked smack about him and so on, Lucas never said a word. He remained diplomatic. Kurtz said that he left Star Wars because of the Ewoks. The truth, as per Rinzler, is he was fired before the end of the production of ESB for his poor handling of the production which sent it careening over-budget and over-schedule forcing Lucas to take out huge loans to finish it. Kurtz wasn't even involved in the production of ROTJ on any level, and had gone long before the Ewoks was a thing. Kurtz became this guy all Star Wars fans relied on as a source because he seemed to validate their feelings and opinions. After he finished Star Wars, Kurtz' career crashed and he later worked on a crappy science-fiction which also starred Hamill in a separate role and again his poor production was a problem there.

    A major reason why the ST is the way it is is that a bunch of fans got the idea that anybody other than Lucas was responsible for the original films. That he was some hack who failed upwards and so on. So Lawrence Kasdan saved the movies with his writing and Lucas contributed nothing but bad ideas (when practically everything in ESB comes from Lucas' own story treatment and Kasdan worked inside that and didn't change anything there). Then there were stuff on top of bad ideas. Like Lucas was this idiot whose first cut was saved by Marcia Lucas...forgetting that the first cut was edited by John Jympson and not Lucas by himself, so it wasn't even his fault. Jympson was a veteran editor who worked on A Hard Day's Night, and as such was one of those seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time situations and the problems with that weren't Lucas' fault it was because Jympson just didn't understand or care for the project and they clashed, he was a good editor on the wrong project. So Marcia Lucas played a crucial role in helping to salvage that at a crucial stage in a very difficult moment, while the final edit was done in further collaboration Paul Hirsch working with Lucas. Marcia Lucas worked on an intermediate cut and didn't create the final cut out of whole cloth. Editing helps to fix things. Editing doesn't take a bad movie and makes it freakin' Star Wars. Freakin' Star Wars has to exist for that to be remotely possible.

    Yeah Lucas wouldn't have done anything without collaboration but the collaborators would never have made Star Wars by themselves without Lucas. And people just ignore the really important collaborators simply because they aren't useful for invoking this kind of stuff. Ben Burtt was the sound designer who created the vader breath (that's his breath recorded from an scubagear underwater and then mixed in), R2D2's beeps and boops, the lightsaber hum. He also edited all three of the prequels in addition to doing the sound design for the prequels. Burtt is Lucas' most important collaborator, the first guy Lucas discussed what his real idea of how the world should look and feel like with, and who immediately understood what Lucas was going for. I mean Ben Burtt's sound design is far more relevant to Star Wars than Kasdan's polished script-doctoring work.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 12-18-2019 at 04:32 PM.

  12. #72
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    I liked this movie quite a lot and I loved the Last Jedi but by the end of it, one thing is super clear: whoever decided that having two such disparate filmmakers and Abrams and Johnson (both of whom I'm a fan of, by the way) work on the same trilogy needs their head examined. So much that doesn't work about Rise of Skywalker all comes down not to anyone directly involved with the film but by JJ clearly sharing so little in common with Rian Johnson that it looks for all the world like he's trying to squeeze two parts of his trilogy into one movie, while doing what he can do deal with the fallout of TLJ.
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  13. #73
    (Formerly ilash) Ilan Preskovsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's not revisionist history. It's in fact the orthodox history understood in the '70s. The real revisionist is this nonsense put out by RLM and others that Lucas is an idiot who failed upwards.

    My stuff is backed by research. Reading interviews contemporary to the '70s (and so uncontaminated by later recollections), books like Rinzler's Making of Books, Paul Hirsch's book on editing Star Wars, interviews with Ben Burtt (Lucas' most important collaborator by far). Interviews with Thom Andersen, Lucas' classmate.



    He's being modest and self-effacing. Lucas is pretty thick-skinned. He's well within his power to say, shut down those RLM videos and remove it from the internet. Instead, he lets them stand. He has also been a good sport about parody and so on.

    I mean when Gary Kurtz talked smack about him and so on, Lucas never said a word. He remained diplomatic. Kurtz said that he left Star Wars because of the Ewoks. The truth, as per Rinzler, is he was fired before the end of the production of ESB for his poor handling of the production which sent it careening over-budget and over-schedule forcing Lucas to take out huge loans to finish it. Kurtz wasn't even involved in the production of ROTJ on any level, and had gone long before the Ewoks was a thing. Kurtz became this guy all Star Wars fans relied on as a source because he seemed to validate their feelings and opinions. After he finished Star Wars, Kurtz' career crashed and he later worked on a crappy science-fiction which also starred Hamill in a separate role and again his poor production was a problem there.

    A major reason why the ST is the way it is is that a bunch of fans got the idea that anybody other than Lucas was responsible for the original films. That he was some hack who failed upwards and so on. So Lawrence Kasdan saved the movies with his writing and Lucas contributed nothing but bad ideas (when practically everything in ESB comes from Lucas' own story treatment and Kasdan worked inside that and didn't change anything there). Then there were stuff on top of bad ideas. Like Lucas was this idiot whose first cut was saved by Marcia Lucas...forgetting that the first cut was edited by John Jympson and not Lucas by himself, so it wasn't even his fault. Jympson was a veteran editor who worked on A Hard Day's Night, and as such was one of those seemed-like-a-good-idea-at-the-time situations and the problems with that weren't Lucas' fault it was because Jympson just didn't understand or care for the project and they clashed, he was a good editor on the wrong project. So Marcia Lucas played a crucial role in helping to salvage that at a crucial stage in a very difficult moment, while the final edit was done in further collaboration Paul Hirsch working with Lucas. Marcia Lucas worked on an intermediate cut and didn't create the final cut out of whole cloth. Editing helps to fix things. Editing doesn't take a bad movie and makes it freakin' Star Wars. Freakin' Star Wars has to exist for that to be remotely possible.

    Yeah Lucas wouldn't have done anything without collaboration but the collaborators would never have made Star Wars by themselves without Lucas. And people just ignore the really important collaborators simply because they aren't useful for invoking this kind of stuff. Ben Burtt was the sound designer who created the vader breath (that's his breath recorded from an scubagear underwater and then mixed in), R2D2's beeps and boops, the lightsaber hum. He also edited all three of the prequels in addition to doing the sound design for the prequels. Burtt is Lucas' most important collaborator, the first guy Lucas discussed what his real idea of how the world should look and feel like with, and who immediately understood what Lucas was going for. I mean Ben Burtt's sound design is far more relevant to Star Wars than Kasdan's polished script-doctoring work.
    That's all well and good but - and I say this as a fan of Lucas - he should not have written or directed a single scene from the prequels. He has an incredible imagination and he's a good, if inconsistent, ideas man but, the original Star Wars aside, it's clear that he should work as a collaborator with more skilled writers and directors to make the most out of his creation. The sequel trilogy could have benefited from his single vision, while the prequels could have benefited greatly from being written and directed by someone else entirely.
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  14. #74
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Wonder if ROS will replace TLJ (and the prequels and ROTJ before it) as the favorite target of unhappy fans?

    And will they have more "legitimate" complaints then being mad that their Snoke theories didn't matter?
    Nope, the treatment of Luke Skywalker, Canto Bight and a slow speed chase through space all but guarantees TLJ's punching bag status.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    He has an incredible imagination and he's a good, if inconsistent, ideas man but, the original Star Wars aside, it's clear that he should work as a collaborator with more skilled writers and directors to make the most out of his creation.
    Considering that Lucas is a better director than any other non-Lucas director on Star Wars, I don't see a jot of truth in this.

    American Graffiti itself is better than every single film that Kershner, Abrams, Johnson, and whoever else made. Most people act as if Star Wars was the first thing he did. In fact for a lot of critics, at least until the 90s (when SW fans grew up and infiltrated the movie critic business), Lucas' was a case of a promising film-maker, for THX-1138 and Star Wars who became a less interesting film-maker when he made Star Wars.

    Most of his contemporaries were baffled with the idea of why he became a producer.
    “If I made as much money as George Lucas, I would not decide to become a studio mogul. I cannot understand why he doesn’t want to direct films anymore, because American Graffiti and even Star Wars were very good.”
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    The way Kubrick says, "even Star Wars" is an indication that he thought it was one of his lesser works.

    Lucas cast all the actors in the OT, personally cast them. He came up with the characters and names, and places. He came up with the vision. Most of the heavy lifting on the original films were done by him and him alone.

    And look...even if you don't share my view about the Prequels (ROTS is the first Star Wars movie I saw in theatres, on my last day of school moreover, and I thoroughly enjoyed it and was immersed in it), I don't see how them being bad somehow negates Lucas as a film-maker. Francis Ford Coppola's Godfather III is not a good movie, but literally nobody will say that the solution is to do a reboot of Godfather without Coppola at the helm and promote those movies by saying Coppola isn't involved. The same guy who made the OT, made the PT, in the same way. A lot of the stuff people complained about the prequels had been there in the original trilogy all along. Like the Jedi Order recruiting child soldiers. Go back to ESB, one of the first things Yoda tells Obi-Wan's ghost is that Luke is too old to start training. Luke is basically about 18-19 then, right? So right there, Lucas was setting that up or as it happens...subconsciously laying down tracks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ilan Preskovsky View Post
    I liked this movie quite a lot and I loved the Last Jedi but by the end of it, one thing is super clear: whoever decided that having two such disparate filmmakers and Abrams and Johnson (both of whom I'm a fan of, by the way) work on the same trilogy needs their head examined. So much that doesn't work about Rise of Skywalker all comes down not to anyone directly involved with the film but by JJ clearly sharing so little in common with Rian Johnson that it looks for all the world like he's trying to squeeze two parts of his trilogy into one movie, while doing what he can do deal with the fallout of TLJ.
    I thought you had a problem with one film-maker doing everything and needing collaborators and so on.

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