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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Post Reformatting the Multiverse again?

    What the title says. When Flashpoint hit and we got the New 52, the Multiverse got rewritten along with the Primary Earth. Earth 2 underwent the most radical revisions; but it wasn't alone: Earth 3 got rewritten as well, from the world of the “Crime Society of America” that appeared in Countdown to the Crime Syndicate that invaded Primary Earth in Forever Evil; Earth 16 went from (nominally) being the world of the Young Justice TV series to being a world of shallow media-obsessed knockoffs of 90s heroes; Earth 31 (I think) went from being the world of Frank Millar's Dark Knight to bring a world of “pirate Batman”; Earth 50 went from being the Wildstorm Universe to bring the world of the Justice Lords from the DCAU; and so on.

    So when the new timeline is out in place (which will arguably be a change to the DCU every bit as big as that of the New 52), will we see further changes to the Multiverse? Personally, I doubt it; at this point, I suspect that the thinking at DC is to leave it alone.

    But maybe they will?

    Earth 1 stays the same, unless DC is done with the Graphic Novels series. I don't think they are; but I haven't been following them, so I could be wrong.

    Perhaps change Earth 2 once more to incorporate more of the original pre-Crisis Earth 2, at least up through the first Crisis; after that, say that the timeline developed in ways that allow for versions of JSA-relevant post-Crisis heroes (such as the Young All-Stars, Jesse Quick, Jack Knight, the turn-of-the-Millennium JSA, and even heroes unique to the New 52 Earth 2 such as Val-Zod) to find a home there.

    I'd leave Earth 3 as it is, complete with being in ruins in the wake of Forever Evil. But I'd introduce an Antimatter Multiverse, with each world in the Multiverse having one stable Antimatter counterpart of its own. Primary Earth's Antimatter counterpart is the one that's connected to Green Lantern lore, and is home to the Anti-Monitor; but I'd also clarify that it's also still home to a version of Morrison's Crime Syndicate; and that Crime Syndicate is still very much alive and well, thank you very much. Earth 2's Antimatter counterpart might be home to something resembling the pre-Flashpoint Crime Society, which was supposedly to the Justice Society as the Crime Syndicate is to the Justice League. Where Earth 3 is the Universe of Evil, its Antimatter counterpart would be a Universe of Good, with heroes that resemble the Justice League in a manner similar to how using Google to translate from English to French and back again resembles the original English: it's a reflection of a reflection, but not the original. And much like Earth 3 got decimated, so did its Antimatter counterpart: they had a run-in with the Primary Earth's Antimatter Crime Syndicate, and came off the worse for it. And so on: every world in the Multiverse gets an Antimatter twin, though most don't need to be explored unless and until you can find something interesting to do with them.

    Earths 7, 8, 34, 35, 36, and 41 are pastiches of other companies' universes; and Earth 4 can be thought of as a pastiche of the Watchmen Earth. I'd leave these Earths as they are; but I'd reveal (probably by way of Earth 4) that they connect to worlds outside of the Local Multiverse: it should be a lot easier to travel to the Watchmen Earth from Earth 4 and vice versa than it is to travel between the Watchmen Earth and Earth 0, for instance. In effect, each of these worlds resonates with either a lone world out in the Far Multiverse or the central world of a whole other Multiverse that's out there.

    Earths 5 and 6 remain unchanged. It's a bit past time for it; but a one-shot featuring the heroes from Earth 6 befriending a man who looks suspiciously like Stan Lee might be a nice thing to see.

    Earth 7 can be restored, reflecting how Marvel's Ultimate Universe was restored. Part of the aforementioned Resonance effect.

    Earth 8 remains as is, but with the addition of an Antimatter counterpart that's a pastiche of Marvel's Negative Zone.

    Earths 9 through 13 can stay the same. While I personally prefer the world of Elseworlds Finest to Earth 11, I think that would be better addressed by introducing the notion of “Hypertime echoes”: similar to the Dark Multiverse, but without the “everything gone horribly wrong” aspect, these echoes exist “beside” the primary worlds of the Multiverse and cling to them, surviving on their resonance with their mainline counterparts. So Elseworlds Finest exists as an “echo” of Earth 11. Indeed, all of the worlds that Convergence described as having survived the Crisis but in altered forms are in fact still around in their original forms, but as Hypertime echoes of their modern counterparts. Possibly give the echoes sub-designations, like calling Elseworlds Finest Earth 11.1.

    Earth 14 can go back to being an Unknown Earth: if any of the Unknown Earths get defined, they really ought to be defined by something special, and the Justice League of Assassins ain't that. Earth 14 in particular holds a place on the Multiversal Map that denotes a special significance: it's on the same axis as the Primary Earth and Earth Prime (supposedly us), and is located opposite of Bizarro World, Earth 29. It shouldn't be a throwaway concept.

    I wouldn't waste Earth 15 on “the world that Superboy Prime destroyed”. I don't know what I'd change it to; but I'd take this opportunity to reboot it as something more useful. Maybe this could be the Earth of the Justice League of Assassins? Or maybe the Justice League of Assassins should just be a Hypertime echo of something.

    I wouldn't mind seeing Earth 16 reverting to being the YJ show: the “media brats” version can fall into the Dark Multiverse to slowly decay into oblivion for all I care; or if you really want to keep it, call it Earth 16.1.

    Earths 17 through 30 can remain as is. Earth 23 might have a Hypertime echo resembling the Earth D from the “lost chapter” of Crisis on Infinite Earths; and while it's not a pastiche of the Milestone universe, it might serve a similar role of providing a connection to it. Earth 26 should have a Hypertime echo that's based on the pre-Crisis Earth C-minus in the same way that Earth 26 is based on the pre-Crisis Earth-C. There might also be one or two echoes based on the recent DC re-imaginings of Hanna Barbara properties.

    I'd love to revert Earth 31 to bring Millar's Dark Knight universe; but apparently Millar doesn't want that. Instead of a pirate universe, could we get a pastiche of the Dark Knight universe?

    I'd be inclined to reboot Earth 32 with different amalgamations of DC heros: Bruce Wayne as Green Lantern should remain, as that was the inspiration for the whole thing (though not as “Bat-Lantern”, as that's just dumb); but I'd prefer to replace the rest with less cringe-inducing blends: for instance, Princess Diana of Atlantis is Aquawoman; Katar Hol is a bow-wielding Thanagarian who goes by the alias of Oliver Queen, and Ladyhawk is his wife (one part Hawkwoman, one part Black Canary, and one part Lady Blackhawk); Superman is the last surviving Martian, sent to Earth as an infant and raised by the Kents in Kansas; and so on. Put some work into combinations that make some sort of sense instead of just shoving together two completely unrelated concepts and names. The Hypertime echoes of this Earth should be especially strong, with each echo featuring different combinations; in particular, there should be an echo where a Kryptonian ship crashed in Gotham and was found by the Waynes.

    Earth 33 is, of course, unchanged — much as many may wish otherwise. There should be an Earth 33.1 echo, though, based off of the Superman: Secret Identity Elseworlds story; and another one based on the pre-Crisis Earth Prime.

    Earths 37, 38, 39, 40, 42, 43, 44, 45, 47, and 48 can remain unchanged. Maybe relocate Earth 40 as Earth 20's Antimatter twin, and use the Earth 40 slot for the world of the Primate Legion (currently the “53rd Earth”, it's too fun to eliminate entirely; but I also don't want a “53rd Earth”).

    Say that the Justice Lords Earth is actually Earth -12 (a Dark Multiverse spinoff of the DCAU Earth, but not its Antimatter twin, which should resemble Earth 0's Antimatter twin); Earth 50 can be the new DC animated universe that's currently being produced: the one that bears a strong resemblance to the New 52 era. Alternately, make that a Hypertime echo of Earth 0, and turn Earth 50 into a pastiche of the Wildstorm universe.

    And Earth 51 can remain the Kirby Earth.

    Finally, I'd put the world of Giffen's JLI/Super Buddies/JL3K as a Hypertime echo of Earth 0, possibly along with several other echoes that represent previous DCU continuities such as pre-Crisis Earth 1, the post-Crisis Earth, the post-Zero Hour DCU, and post-IC's New Earth.

    Thoughts?
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  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    I say just get rid of all the Morrison nonsense and just go back to the classic infinite multiverse.

  3. #3
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    Its already been hinted or foreshadowed.
    https://pm1.narvii.com/7161/23ee6034...-1658v2_hq.jpg

    They might do away with Hypertime and source walls.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    I'm glad to hear that. But wasn't the whole six dimensional stuff a con game?

    Anyway, I agree with getting rid of the source wall. But I'd rather keep hyper time and get rid of the orrery of worlds. Let's just have a wide open sandbox that anyone can play in to their hearts content.
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  5. #5
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    They won't ever really touch all the worlds with regularity. Snyder been talking about getting rid of Hypertime and it's already dying in the books.

    Dc's new 4 G timeline has multiple worlds mention so they meet those worlds much earler again like pre crisis. Earth S, X, 2 might revert to their pre-crisis versions. While the main Earth zero still has their own copies of Jsa and Shazam.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    They won't ever really touch all the worlds with regularity. Snyder been talking about getting rid of Hypertime and it's already dying in the books.

    Dc's new 4 G timeline has multiple worlds mention so they meet those worlds much earler again like pre crisis. Earth S, X, 2 might revert to their pre-crisis versions. While the main Earth zero still has their own copies of Jsa and Shazam.
    In my opinion, that would be a mistake. The whole point of hyper time is to open up the possibilities. Getting rid of it causes problems like where is the wildstorm universe? Where is the Milestone universe? Where is the Watchmen universe? As long as you're doing an orrery of worlds with a finite number of worlds, you will eventually reach a point where you run out of places to put the world's that you want to add.

    Hypertime isn't just potentially infinite, it is also dynamic. This is why it is potentially infinite. If you want a new world to play with, just add it. if that world turns out to not be popular or interesting enough to keep around, just get rid of it. It's very similar to the dark Multiverse, but without the inherent implication that something had to go horribly wrong for the world to qualify. That's why I'd rather ditch the orrery and keep hypertime than the other way around.

    Also: Hypertime isn't “dying”; it's being smothered. The concept itself is solid; arguably better even than the pre-Crisis Infinite Earths. But there are people in charge at DC who have been nixing its use almost from the point it was first introduced: there was, maybe, a five-year period, if that, where DC permitted its writers to do things with Hypertime; then they slammed the door on it. The fact that it's still around is a testament to its resilience.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 12-14-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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  7. #7
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    They just can make those other Earths part of it or out of it. The Watchmen Earth is stand alone by itself for example.

    They did restore the classic pre crisis multiverse already in Convergence so that's another yet infinite multiverse. And there's new Earth's already shown existing not part of the new 52 multiverse or the infinite multiverse.

    They also made the 53rd world that some what exists near the orrery.

    We also have to take in the fact that the Meta-verse while part of Earth Zero it can stand alone by itself.

    So endless new Earths are being created.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's Hypertime.
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  9. #9
    insulin4all CaptCleghorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    I say just get rid of all the Morrison nonsense and just go back to the classic infinite multiverse.
    Although the idea of only 52 universes takes the current belief (not universal) that there are an infinite number of parallel universes and cuts that off, the idea that there's a neighborhood of 52 universes that are less difficult to travel to makes sense. Outside the range of 52, there are still an infinite number. That to me is the best solution.

  10. #10
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    Hypertime operates differently and is ending. Theres no need when there's multiple multiverses.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    Hypertime operates differently and is ending. Theres no need when there's multiple multiverses.
    I'm not sure what you think Hypertime is. But my understanding of it matches exactly what you say it isn't. Convergence was Hypertime in all but name, for example.
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  12. #12
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    Except nothing I said was hypertime. Morrison's Hypertime operates differently.

    Hypertime is a network of alternate timelines partially enclosed but can bleed into the main timeline or the others. Multiverses have universes with their own Earth in solid more stable reality.

  13. #13
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dataweaver View Post
    What the title says. When Flashpoint hit and we got the New 52, the Multiverse got rewritten along with the Primary Earth. Earth 2 underwent the most radical revisions; but it wasn't alone: Earth 3 got rewritten as well, from the world of the “Crime Society of America” that appeared in Countdown to the Crime Syndicate that invaded Primary Earth in Forever Evil; Earth 16 went from (nominally) being the world of the Young Justice TV series to being a world of shallow media-obsessed knockoffs of 90s heroes; Earth 31 (I think) went from being the world of Frank Millar's Dark Knight to bring a world of “pirate Batman”; Earth 50 went from being the Wildstorm Universe to bring the world of the Justice Lords from the DCAU; and so on.
    Yes, I would say either Graant Morrison took to much time to wrote Multiversity and in the meanwhile DiDio and Lee came with teh New52 idea which forced certain changes. Also, It seems like Miller didn't like the idea of his universe being part of the playground for other writers so they had to replace the DKR eath with the pirate universe. And as Wildstorm was forced to fiusion to the main DC line, there was no need for a earth 50 Wildstorm.

    Perhaps change Earth 2 once more to incorporate more of the original pre-Crisis Earth 2, at least up through the first Crisis; after that, say that the timeline developed in ways that allow for versions of JSA-relevant post-Crisis heroes (such as the Young All-Stars, Jesse Quick, Jack Knight, the turn-of-the-Millennium JSA, and even heroes unique to the New 52 Earth 2 such as Val-Zod) to find a home there.
    Yes, that could be an interesting turn. But I suppose it deppendes on how will the JSA be developted after Doomsday Clock. I suppose we will know next wednesday.

    I'd leave Earth 3 as it is, complete with being in ruins in the wake of Forever Evil. But I'd introduce an Antimatter Multiverse, with each world in the Multiverse having one stable Antimatter counterpart of its own. Primary Earth's Antimatter counterpart is the one that's connected to Green Lantern lore, and is home to the Anti-Monitor; but I'd also clarify that it's also still home to a version of Morrison's Crime Syndicate; and that Crime Syndicate is still very much alive and well, thank you very much. Earth 2's Antimatter counterpart might be home to something resembling the pre-Flashpoint Crime Society, which was supposedly to the Justice Society as the Crime Syndicate is to the Justice League. Where Earth 3 is the Universe of Evil, its Antimatter counterpart would be a Universe of Good, with heroes that resemble the Justice League in a manner similar to how using Google to translate from English to French and back again resembles the original English: it's a reflection of a reflection, but not the original. And much like Earth 3 got decimated, so did its Antimatter counterpart: they had a run-in with the Primary Earth's Antimatter Crime Syndicate, and came off the worse for it. And so on: every world in the Multiverse gets an Antimatter twin, though most don't need to be explored unless and until you can find something interesting to do with them.
    It seems like Hell arisen it going to take in account what happens with earth 3. And their resurrections. Anyway, I'm not totally convinced with the antimatter being the evil anti universe, as the same with the dark multiverse

    Earths 7, 8, 34, 35, 36, and 41 are pastiches of other companies' universes; and Earth 4 can be thought of as a pastiche of the Watchmen Earth. I'd leave these Earths as they are; but I'd reveal (probably by way of Earth 4) that they connect to worlds outside of the Local Multiverse: it should be a lot easier to travel to the Watchmen Earth from Earth 4 and vice versa than it is to travel between the Watchmen Earth and Earth 0, for instance. In effect, each of these worlds resonates with either a lone world out in the Far Multiverse or the central world of a whole other Multiverse that's out there.
    It would be nice to see other otherworlds. It surprises me DC didn't make an Red Circle world analog. Or an Ultraverse universe analog.

    Earth 7 can be restored, reflecting how Marvel's Ultimate Universe was restored. Part of the aforementioned Resonance effect.

    Earth 8 remains as is, but with the addition of an Antimatter counterpart that's a pastiche of Marvel's Negative Zone.
    The counterpart should be the New universe!

    Earths 9 through 13 can stay the same. While I personally prefer the world of Elseworlds Finest to Earth 11, I think that would be better addressed by introducing the notion of “Hypertime echoes”: similar to the Dark Multiverse, but without the “everything gone horribly wrong” aspect, these echoes exist “beside” the primary worlds of the Multiverse and cling to them, surviving on their resonance with their mainline counterparts. So Elseworlds Finest exists as an “echo” of Earth 11. Indeed, all of the worlds that Convergence described as having survived the Crisis but in altered forms are in fact still around in their original forms, but as Hypertime echoes of their modern counterparts. Possibly give the echoes sub-designations, like calling Elseworlds Finest Earth 11.1.
    Na, leave that as another universe or maybe as one of the unknown earths. Not all of them has been yet being revealed.

    Earth 14 can go back to being an Unknown Earth: if any of the Unknown Earths get defined, they really ought to be defined by something special, and the Justice League of Assassins ain't that. Earth 14 in particular holds a place on the Multiversal Map that denotes a special significance: it's on the same axis as the Primary Earth and Earth Prime (supposedly us), and is located opposite of Bizarro World, Earth 29. It shouldn't be a throwaway concept.
    I agree with you on that. Kinda of a let dow with that idea of league of assassins.

    I wouldn't mind seeing Earth 16 reverting to being the YJ show: the “media brats” version can fall into the Dark Multiverse to slowly decay into oblivion for all I care; or if you really want to keep it, call it Earth 16.1.
    I don't like when the media are mixed. I like when the Batman beyond universe became part of the comic canon afted the DCAU ended its emision, but I don't think it is a good idea of making a showt canon when it still is being emited. Kinda makes one genre submit to the other.

    I'd be inclined to reboot Earth 32 with different amalgamations of DC heros: Bruce Wayne as Green Lantern should remain, as that was the inspiration for the whole thing (though not as “Bat-Lantern”, as that's just dumb); but I'd prefer to replace the rest with less cringe-inducing blends: for instance, Princess Diana of Atlantis is Aquawoman; Katar Hol is a bow-wielding Thanagarian who goes by the alias of Oliver Queen, and Ladyhawk is his wife (one part Hawkwoman, one part Black Canary, and one part Lady Blackhawk); Superman is the last surviving Martian, sent to Earth as an infant and raised by the Kents in Kansas; and so on. Put some work into combinations that make some sort of sense instead of just shoving together two completely unrelated concepts and names. The Hypertime echoes of this Earth should be especially strong, with each echo featuring different combinations; in particular, there should be an echo where a Kryptonian ship crashed in Gotham and was found by the Waynes.
    I like how earth 23 developted and about earth 32, I like a more chaotic mix instead a strictly order of amalgamations. It is more fun when the mixes are more unexpected and more opposites.

    What liked the most of the multiversity was the structure designed, with the axis tpo see where each earth could fit(pinnacle/pit, order/chaos), acording to their identity. I like the idea of the structure of the multiverse, more thant to have 52 universes.
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  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Since the timeline shows that the JSA will be on the same Earth again alongside Wonder Woman, yeah, it's going to be a new Multiverse. At the very least, the content of Earth-2 will be different.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Dataweaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Since the timeline shows that the JSA will be on the same Earth again alongside Wonder Woman, yeah, it's going to be a new Multiverse. At the very least, the content of Earth-2 will be different.
    So we can have multiple Justice Leagues, but not multiple Justice Societies? No: let's have our Primary Earth JSA and our Earth 2 JSA, too. The latter can cater to whatever JSA-related elements that don't fit on the Primary Earth.
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