Reformatting the Multiverse again?

[ShinySephiroth]

Actually no. Already been done pre nu52 with JSA on both earths.

Anyway convergence retconned Nu 52 Earth 2 characters as the real JSA but reborn.

Yeah, I've been wondering what they are gonna do about this. Also, related, if the Power Girl seen in Doomsday Clocj is a different Power Girl than the one stuck with Tanya Spears in "limbo".

[ShinySephiroth]

Nice; I like!

I know it's a fat chance of happening, but it'd be cool!

[Dataweaver]

In particular, I like the following two things:

1. The Streak, Black Siren, Cat Man, Tom Turbine, and the Green Guardsman are the Antimatter counterparts to Earth-3's Johnny Quick, Superwoman, Owlman, Ultraman, and Power Ring, respectively. I might tweak them to be more contemporary rather than Justice Society expies; or I might not.

2. Like the Crime Syndicate, the Justice Guild fell in battle, and their Earth is now without its champions. Just tweak the reason for their deaths to parallel the fall of Earth 3's Crime Syndicate.

[dswynne]

I always thought that the best way to see the DCU is that there are the 52-Earths within the DCU, and that each Earth has its own "Hypertime" (or parallel timelines). Ergo, you can have multiple versions of, let's say, Earth-2 (i.e. pre-Crisis and post-Crisis), with the added bonus certain worlds/timelines are intrinsically linked, to the point that a modern Earth-1 world can't access a pre-Crisis Earth-2. But with Doomsday Clock and the introduction of the Dark Multiverse, trying to codify some meaning of the DCU will become more difficult moving forward.

[ShinySephiroth]

I always thought that the best way to see the DCU is that there are the 52-Earths within the DCU, and that each Earth has its own "Hypertime" (or parallel timelines). Ergo, you can have multiple versions of, let's say, Earth-2 (i.e. pre-Crisis and post-Crisis), with the added bonus certain worlds/timelines are intrinsically linked, to the point that a modern Earth-1 world can't access a pre-Crisis Earth-2. But with Doomsday Clock and the introduction of the Dark Multiverse, trying to codify some meaning of the DCU will become more difficult moving forward.

Yeah, that would be like looking up a still shot of a specific version of a multiverse (a resonance structure of it?) through the Metaverse's "wayback machine" and then seeing what happened to it afterward. ^_^

In particular, I like the following two things:

1. The Streak, Black Siren, Cat Man, Tom Turbine, and the Green Guardsman are the Antimatter counterparts to Earth-3's Johnny Quick, Superwoman, Owlman, Ultraman, and Power Ring, respectively. I might tweak them to be more contemporary rather than Justice Society expies; or I might not.

2. Like the Crime Syndicate, the Justice Guild fell in battle, and their Earth is now without its champions. Just tweak the reason for their deaths to parallel the fall of Earth 3's Crime Syndicate.

Oh, that is pretty cool ^_^

Because New 52 Superman is alive?
Okay so then...
- Superman is still dating Wonder Woman and recently returned from space after being cured of Doomsday virus
- Lana and Steel stays in Lana's old home in Smallville as a couple
- Dick Grayson is still a secret agent, just finished with his initial mission and Spyral becomes good
- Batman and The Joker died in their Endgame and resurrected but lost their memories
- Convergence Earth dissolved/evolved into the current universe
- Earth-2 inhabitants just reached the new Earth and were about to rebuild their home
- Donna Troy was imprisoned in Olympus for murdering Male Amazons
- Diana is still God of War
- Starfire is still with the Outlaws
- Luthor is still in the League, making a bargain with Owlman
- Damian Wayne is recently resurrected
Things that don't exist
- Mr. Oz
- Convergence Post Crisis Super Family
- Titans the group. The individuals still exist except for Wally and maybe Gnarrk

Convergence would've already happened, it's only just finished, and since those old Earths and Earth-2 won't interact anymore with the main Earth, their existence is irrelevant. They can disappear or stay there, it doesn't matter.

And, according to Hypertime & Convergence, that means that somewhere there is (or will be, once 5G starts) a version of the Rebirth universe that is slightly different than what the "main" Rebirth Earth will be, and is the version Johns started:
1) Artemis & Bizarro never got separated from Jason and they are still the initial Rebirth versions of themselves (RIP Rebirth Outlaws)
2) Damian never made Teen Titans II
3) Jonathan was never aged up
4) Pre-Zero Hour Imra is still locked up in Arkham, awaiting to do whatever it is she had planned during Rebirth #1
5) The Titans still exist and never broke up
6) Superman never put on the trunks again
7) Batman's Detective team never disbanded because Clayface never went haywire (and Tim is still Red Robin)
8) Simon & Jessica are still members of the JL
9) JLA II are still active
10) Heroes in Crisis never happened
11) The 3 Jokers thing was dealt with already
And things like that. I'd like to think it would be called "Earth JR (John's Rebirth)" ^_^

Yes, and no: we don't have any firm in-setting rules on what causes a world to transform, split, merge, freeze, restart, etc., though we do know the meta-explanation (is all based on what the creative teams at DC want to do), and we have some examples of when things change and when they don't. The principles behind how Hypertime works can be fairly simple, while still giving rise to a complex and ever-changing multiverse (in the most general sense of that term) to explore.

So Hypertime was meant to be like resonant structures in chemistry?

I mostly agree with this. Using the computer analogy that dswynne brought up and thinking of the Multiverse as a sort of “file system”, I see the main innovation of DDC being the introduction of something like a revision-based feature to the filesystem, kind of like looking at older versions of Wikipedia pages: older iterations of a given world in the Orrery still exist; you just have to dig through the Revision history to get to them.

I did love that computer analogy, too! Taking your additions into account, that would mean that we could see that the additions of new earths (like how once 5G starts THAT will be the local 52's new "Prime Earth" and Prime Earth will gain a new designation and those stories will continue in those upcoming $8 comics) will cause the old earths to become ancient history... except that they still exist and it is like not only being able to find an older version a webpage through Wayback Machine, but also having the power to make that version "come back" and continue on with a new server and new administrators, having the same history as its replacement page(s) up to a point before it diverged.

This also makes me question if there is enough "memory" for a truly infinite number of multiverse numbers to exist...

Good question. If we go by Morrison's notion from Multiversity that universes can communicate with each other through comic books, then the Justice League just picked up a copy of the Guide to the Multiverse from Multiversity. :/

Aside from that, I'm not sure. Multiversity implies that the Final Crisis still happened despite the New 52; maybe Superman picked up a copy when he visited the Monitor Sphere in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond?

Ultimately, the only reason I care if a world is in the Orrery or not is that the current take on things is that worlds in the Orrery are sheltered from the deleterious effects of the Dark Multiverse by virtue of being in the Orrery, and that their position in the Orrery affects their metaphysical nature: Earth 3 is in the dark, chaotic quadrant of the Orrery, and as a result it's a universe where evil tends to triumph; Earth 51 is right next to New Genesis, which is why the New Gods are so active on that Earth; Earths 0 and 33 are along the central axis, which is why changes to Earth 0 affect everything else on the map and why Earth 33 seems to be able to impose changes on the other Earths. In other words, the Map isn't just a neat graphic that lists a bunch of worlds; it has a structure to it that has implications. And as long as that structure is in play, those implications are also in play and it matters where you are in relation to that structure.

Thank you! I didn't realize how essential it was to reiterate if Morrison's multiversity rules were still in play or not! You can't just say "yes" and ignore the mechanisms that come into play with them... that would be like saying, "I bought a car and have been using it, but suddenly because I wanted it to it is also an airplane even though there are no parts in it that make it an airplane". It just doesn't work - if the mechanics are in play then we have to see if Dr. Manhattan broke the system or if "Earth-52" (New 52) is part of another local multiverse bubble...

And with that, I better understand how Dark Nights is a crazy event, since it states it follows Multiversity... how the heck does Earth 53 work, then!?

Dark Multiverse worlds are born of fears but also dreams, in theory. Their common ground is that they are unstable, always veering toward their own destruction. Meanwhile, Earth-3, as fucked up as it is, is actually quite stable, with a very well established society and outlook to the world.

Basically, a world were everyone would discover bliss all the time to the point that they'd stop everything to just experience it until they'd die would be a Dark Multiverse world, while a world where they experience bliss and build a society around how easy it is to feel it, would be a world of the normal Multiverse. At least it's how I envision it.

Regarding the Metaverse and new Worlds, I see it as something like that

Meta-Earth history--------------------Crisis-------------------------------Meta-Earth history revised
.................................................. .......l
--------------------------------- Earth (-)X (basically, the Meta-Earth existing before the events of the Crisis.


So, to take an example, I suspect that Earth-52, based on the New 52 actually has a Superman who, instead of having his Final Days, lived on with his Diana, and his Bruce Wayne all healed and ready to fight crime once more. But without any Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois Lane, no Mister Oz nor Doctor Manhattan (and possibly no Darkseid War or one with a very different ending : Owlman and Grid in possession of the Mobius Chair).

I think that is the perfect way to understand these "post-crisis" earths!

Imagine living in a world were some men and women seem above the law and beyond human.

Sure they seem kind and helpful...but what if appearances are deceiving? Maybe they are truly wonderful...until they change their mind. One man seems to be a demigod. What could stop him? (Think Brightburn. Or any of the other dystopian Superhero stories out there.)

*Lex Luthor has entered the chat*

[Dataweaver]

Yeah, that would be like looking up a still shot of a specific version of a multiverse (a resonance structure of it?) through the Metaverse's "wayback machine" and then seeing what happened to it afterward. ^_^

The “Wayback Machine” analogy has some interesting implications, too: looking at the “meta-timeline” of the Multiverse, you have the Past, the Present, and the Future.

• The Present is the Orrery of Worlds with its 52 Earths that the current iteration of DC is primarily featuring.

• The Past comes in multiple layers representing previous iterations of DC, like the Golden Age Earth, the Silver Age Infinite Earths, the post-Crisis “Clutter-Earth”, the post-IC Orrery of Worlds, and the post-Flashpoint Orrery of Worlds. Being the Past, it's essentially static; it has had its day, that day is over, and while you may revisit it or bring elements of it back to life in the Present, you can't truly go back. In a way, it's like Morrison's Limbo (where unused characters go) but for entire worlds or even multiverses. In fact, this may actually be Limbo; just a much more structured version of it. This is what Johns is featuring in DDC#12, and is where you'll find the likes of the Earth 2, Earth 1985, and Earth 52 from this story.

• The Future is the Dark Multiverse. That's where possible elements of the next iteration of DC are forged. Most will be discarded; a handful will end up supplanting the worlds of the Present when the time is right. The worlds of the Dark Multiverse are unstable because the Future is unformed.

In this view, the Dark Multiverse isn't Dark because its worlds are inherently self-destructive; it's Dark because we can't see the Future — not clearly, at least. Most of the potential futures won't find homes in the Orrery, and will fade away as unrealized possibilities. A few will find homes in the Present, displacing worlds formerly in the Present into the Past. Metal was a story where the Future attempts to impose itself on the Present prematurely; and I could see the possibility of a story some time down the road where the Past likewise attempts to reclaim its role as the Present. Phrasing it differently, what happens if the denizens of Limbo try to retake the spotlight the way the denizens of the Dark Multiverse did in Metal?

And, according to Hypertime & Convergence, that means that somewhere there is (or will be, once 5G starts) a version of the Rebirth universe that is slightly different than what the "main" Rebirth Earth will be, and is the version Johns started:
1) Artemis & Bizarro never got separated from Jason and they are still the initial Rebirth versions of themselves (RIP Rebirth Outlaws)
2) Damian never made Teen Titans II
3) Jonathan was never aged up
4) Pre-Zero Hour Imra is still locked up in Arkham, awaiting to do whatever it is she had planned during Rebirth #1
5) The Titans still exist and never broke up
6) Superman never put on the trunks again
7) Batman's Detective team never disbanded because Clayface never went haywire (and Tim is still Red Robin)
8) Simon & Jessica are still members of the JL
9) JLA II are still active
10) Heroes in Crisis never happened
11) The 3 Jokers thing was dealt with already
And things like that. I'd like to think it would be called "Earth JR (John's Rebirth)" ^_^

I think that world is already in Limbo.

So Hypertime was meant to be like resonant structures in chemistry?

I'm not familiar enough with chemistry to answer this.

I did love that computer analogy, too! Taking your additions into account, that would mean that we could see that the additions of new earths (like how once 5G starts THAT will be the local 52's new "Prime Earth" and Prime Earth will gain a new designation and those stories will continue in those upcoming $8 comics) will cause the old earths to become ancient history... except that they still exist and it is like not only being able to find an older version a webpage through Wayback Machine, but also having the power to make that version "come back" and continue on with a new server and new administrators, having the same history as its replacement page(s) up to a point before it diverged.

Exactly.

This also makes me question if there is enough "memory" for a truly infinite number of multiverse numbers to exist...

In principle, no there isn't: the number of worlds that you can have in Limbo is only potentially infinite, not actually infinite: eventually, archived worlds will be “forgotten” and will cease to exist (kind of like the ghosts in Coco). But in practice, the Memory of the Metaverse (which is housed on Earth 33?) is vast; and by definition, we will never know about what we've truly forgotten. It's not truly infinite; but it's effectively infinite.

Thank you! I didn't realize how essential it was to reiterate if Morrison's multiversity rules were still in play or not! You can't just say "yes" and ignore the mechanisms that come into play with them... that would be like saying, "I bought a car and have been using it, but suddenly because I wanted it to it is also an airplane even though there are no parts in it that make it an airplane". It just doesn't work - if the mechanics are in play then we have to see if Dr. Manhattan broke the system or if "Earth-52" (New 52) is part of another local multiverse bubble...

…or if Earth-52 is in Limbo. Personally, I view “other local Multiverses” as best used to represent intellectual property that DC has little to no control over: things like the Marvel Universe, the various shards of the Shattered Image, Tower Comics, and so on.

And with that, I better understand how Dark Nights is a crazy event, since it states it follows Multiversity... how the heck does Earth 53 work, then!?

I know, right?

[Dataweaver]

In order to avoid starting a new thread for this, I'm going to use this one to catalog the possible Metaversal Earths:

Earth-2: based on the 1938–1956 Earth; triggered by the birth of the Speed Force.
Earth-1970: based on 1951–1972 Earth-1; triggered by the first incursion of the Fourth World.
Earth-1985: based on 1968–1986 Earth-1; triggered by the Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Earth-Σ: based on 1981–1994 Earth; triggered by Zero Hour.
Earth-τ: based on 1991–2003 Earth; triggered by Infinite Crisis.
Earth-Δ: based on the 2001–2011 New Earth; triggered by Flashpoint.
Earth-52: based on 2011–2016 Prime Earth; triggered by Doomsday Clock.

[wickedmountain]

Does anyone know when this new timeline is coming out ?

[warzon]

Can we please just have Kal el just get out the shower and say the last 10 years had been a dream.

[Rod G]

Can we please just have Kal el just get out the shower and say the last 10 years had been a dream.

Nah.


Just the last 4.

[Thor-Ul]

In order to avoid starting a new thread for this, I'm going to use this one to catalog the possible Metaversal Earths:

Earth-2: based on the 1938–1956 Earth
Earth-1985: based on 1951–1986 Earth-1. If I could find any time manipulation shenanigans in or around 1970, I'd use that to split this into a Silver Age Earth and a Bronze Age Earth.
Earth-Σ: based on 1981–1994 Earth
Earth-τ: based on 1991–2003 Earth
Earth-Δ: based on the 2001–2011 New Earth
Earth-52: based on 2011–2016 Prime Earth

I think that would be the Sandman saga, from 1971 Not a time manipulation per se, but to an editorial level, there were changes and substitutions and it is considered the first Bronze age issue from Superman.

[Denirac]

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2020/01...ck-dc-rebirth/
We might not need to worry about the current state of the Multiverse much longer

[Dataweaver]

I think that would be the Sandman saga, from 1971 Not a time manipulation per se, but to an editorial level, there were changes and substitutions and it is considered the first Bronze age issue from Superman.

That would indeed be where I put the split. But as I've said elsewhere, I feel like there needs to be an actual change in the timeline, not just in the editorial department, to justify a separate Metaversal Earth. I'm willing to stretch it out a few years (for instance, using the arrival of Indigo in Titans/YJ: Graduation Day to retroactively justify a handful of changes between Earth-τ and Earth-Δ reaching as far back as 2000); but without a time manipulation event to point to, it's “just” a course adjustment where the timestream takes an unexpected turn but doesn't split.

The closest I can find is the 1965 story “Crisis on Earth-A” where the Earth-One version of Johnny Thunder got control of the Thunderbolt and used it to replace the Justice League with the “Lawless league” before eventually putting everything back the way it was. But that would be a little too far back in time from 1971's changes for me to be comfortable making any connection between them. A couple of years backwards from a time alteration event, maybe; three at most. But not five years, and definitely not five years after.

[Zaresh]

That would indeed be where I put the split. But as I've said elsewhere, I feel like there needs to be an actual change in the timeline, not just in the editorial department, to justify a separate Metaversal Earth. I'm willing to stretch it out a few years (for instance, using the arrival of Indigo in Titans/YJ: Graduation Day to retroactively justify a handful of changes between Earth-τ and Earth-Δ reaching as far back as 2000); but without a time manipulation event to point to, it's “just” a course adjustment where the timestream takes an unexpected turn but doesn't split.

The closest I can find is the 1965 story “Crisis on Earth-A” where the Earth-One version of Johnny Thunder got control of the Thunderbolt and used it to replace the Justice League with the “Lawless league” before eventually putting everything back the way it was. But that would be a little too far back in time from 1971's changes for me to be comfortable making any connection between them. A couple of years backwards from a time alteration event, maybe; three at most. But not five years, and definitely not five years after.

What if, instead of an in-universe time-related event, it was one that actually changed the whole mechanics of the DCU long shot--the one that cut (in-universe) silver and bronze earths? The arriving of Kirby's whole fourth world pack has been a big changer, it has played a big role, maybe not by itself, but by the "after effect" stories of it. Like some ripple effect.

[Dataweaver]

I like it in principle. DDC#12 does talk about “in the year 2020, Superman's timeline is bombarded by the reckless energies of the old gods, once again warping the Metaverse.” Setting aside for the moment what this has to say about this year's comics (and I suspect this ties in closely with the current Justice League saga and its various Forces), it does establish that the right kind of intervention from the Godsphere can alter the Metaverse (and thus spawn another Metaversal Earth); and the New Gods also reside in the Godsphere. So yeah; that has the potential to work.