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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    That's my point, the aether is ever-present. Even if Xavier and the Five don't realize it or factor it into their calculations.
    Thing is Astral Plane is completely excluded from the equation. He stores "memories", in a form of data, inside the new incarnation of Cerebro machine. Sometimes not even in its fullest as backups are created once in a week IIRC. It doesn't feel like they are the real ones, but mere facsimiles. No one really bothered to bring back their spirits.
    I think instead of memories, Xavier's new Cerebro should've focused on capturing the "astral souls" of those who died. Thus reviving the actual person, not creating a simple replicant.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    It has nothing of spiritual. Xavier back all memories to a hard drive and they are stored. It's very industrial machine.
    Yep.
    101010

  3. #138
    Ultimate Member Tycon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    Thing is Astral Plane is completely excluded from the equation. He stores "memories", in a form of data, inside the new incarnation of Cerebro machine. Sometimes not even in its fullest as backups are created once in a week IIRC. It doesn't feel like they are the real ones, but mere facsimiles. No one really bothered to bring back their spirits.
    I think instead of memories, Xavier's new Cerebro should've focused on capturing the "astral souls" of those who died. Thus reviving the actual person, not creating a simple replicant.

  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    Thing is Astral Plane is completely excluded from the equation. He stores "memories", in a form of data, inside the new incarnation of Cerebro machine. Sometimes not even in its fullest as backups are created once in a week IIRC. It doesn't feel like they are the real ones, but mere facsimiles. No one really bothered to bring back their spirits.
    I think instead of memories, Xavier's new Cerebro should've focused on capturing the "astral souls" of those who died. Thus reviving the actual person, not creating a simple replicant.
    My original point is focused on nondualism. There is nowhere that is not Godhead. There is nothing that is not spiritual. "Personhood" is always a construct inhabited by the Godhead for a while.

    The thoughtforms and the body is the construct's limitations/dimensions. The process replicates them, yes, but those forms are always inhabited by Godhead, because there is nothing that is not Godhead. This is nondualism. There is no separation of sacred from profane. It's always just the Oneness. It's always just the Godhead, however idiosyncratically expressed or defined.

    Now, I'm not saying this is exactly what Hickman is saying. It's just my own way of interpreting the ideas(although that pink/white light seems to be the spiritual "Godhead" coming back into the body, it even originates in Xavier's sushumna nadi(near where Kundalini, the mahaShakti(the great Life Force) lies coiled)). It could very well be Hickman is more coming from a cold, calculated, AI replicant algorithm point of view(especially when this whole Hickman era inevitably crumbles under it's own weight and the status quo is reset to simpler times), in line with more real-world transhumanists who think you can actually download people's minds into our computers and actually maintain that 'person' (which is why I too balked at the process at first). But in terms of Marvel Comics and Shi'Ar technology and telepathy and reality warpers and such, in a world that definitely has magic and afterlives and alternate dimensions and Astral Planes, it is easy for me to see it a different way.
    Last edited by yogaflame; 12-21-2019 at 11:50 AM.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  5. #140
    Astonishing Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post

    Now, I'm not saying this is exactly what Hickman is saying. It's just my own way of interpreting the ideas(although that pink/white light seems to be the spiritual "Godhead" coming back into the body, it even originates in Xavier's sushumna nadi(near where Kundalini, the mahaShakti(the great Life Force) lies coiled)). It could very well be Hickman is more coming from a cold, calculated, AI replicant algorithm point of view(especially when this whole Hickman era inevitably crumbles under it's own weight and the status quo is reset to simpler times), in line with more real-world transhumanists who think you can actually download people's minds into our computers and actually maintain that 'person' (which is why I too balked at the process at first). But in terms of Marvel Comics and Shi'Ar technology and telepathy and reality warpers and such, in a world that definitely has magic and afterlives and alternate dimensions and Astral Planes, it is easy for me to see it a different way.
    Ugh I love this
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  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    My original point is focused on nondualism. There is nowhere that is not Godhead. There is nothing that is not spiritual. "Personhood" is always a construct inhabited by the Godhead for a while.
    Sure. I wasn't really familiar with the concept so I could miss the context.

    The thoughtforms and the body is the construct's limitations/dimensions. The process replicates them, yes, but those forms are always inhabited by Godhead, because there is nothing that is not Godhead. This is nondualism. There is no separation of sacred from profane. It's always just the Oneness. It's always just the Godhead, however idiosyncratically expressed or defined.
    It's interesting when X-mythos makes us reflect on those ideas IRL, but there's always a certain barrier that exists. What I mean is, in MU, souls are real. Heaven/hell/afterlife dimensions, sometimes completely random, are real. There's though, an unexplored relation that could've been explored. Oh and perfect clones are real too. And they aren't really the same people.

    Now, I'm not saying this is exactly what Hickman is saying. It's just my own way of interpreting the ideas(although that pink/white light seems to be the spiritual "Godhead" coming back into the body, it even originates in Xavier's sushumna nadi(near where Kundalini, the mahaShakti(the great Life Force) lies coiled)). It could very well be Hickman is more coming from a cold, calculated, AI replicant algorithm point of view(especially when this whole Hickman era inevitably crumbles under it's own weight and the status quo is reset to simpler times), in line with more real-world transhumanists who think you can actually download people's minds into our computers and actually maintain that 'person' (which is why I too balked at the process at first). But in terms of Marvel Comics and Shi'Ar technology and telepathy and reality warpers and such, in a world that definitely has magic and afterlives and alternate dimensions and Astral Planes, it is easy for me to see it a different way.
    And that's exactly why more details are needed to make us emphasize imo.
    I don't think the process or the idea are completely bonkers or something. I just feel it lacks the spiritual component in its equation. It's as if Hickman says the "thoughts=anima=souls" and that to me, feels crude. And in MU, where again, souls are a real deal, there should've been some acknowledgment of that. Crap, Proteus is there, have him capture the spirit. But to me personally it's an important thing to mention.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    It basically says that thoughts are souls. And that's not really the case.

  8. #143

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    All of this sort of thing is carefully explored in metaphysics, but Hickman didn't 'show his work', he's just giving us the answer.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  9. #144
    Mighty Member sungila's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    All of this sort of thing is carefully explored in metaphysics, but Hickman didn't 'show his work', he's just giving us the answer.
    Isn't that sort of a way of actually asking though...I mean, like in a generous way...like a door creaking open...like a space of greeting...by name?
    If, by chance, one believes it's called, and/or ajar and worth the risk of exploring?

    With a light, or feeling for...where one might be...
    “The reason of the unreasonableness which against my reason is wrought, doth so weaken my reason, as with all reason I do justly complain on your beauty.”
    ― Miguel de Cervantes Don Quixote

  10. #145

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    It basically says that thoughts are souls. And that's not really the case.
    Think back to X-Men 108, when Moira 'died'(apparently not, according to Hickman, but...). Xavier and Jean and Cable were all able to interact with Moira's dying astral form*which was essentially her soul, it even goes into the light as she's dying. So in Marvel Comics, psionic energy is essentially analogous with life force/spiritual energy at some level(see the Phoenix Force, the sum of all life force/psionic energy of all sentient beings past/present/future; the spark of Life).

    moirasdeath1.jpg

    moiradeath2.jpg

    moiradeath4.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by sungila View Post
    Isn't that sort of a way of actually asking though...I mean, like in a generous way...like a door creaking open...like a space of greeting...by name?
    If, by chance, one believes it's called, and/or ajar and worth the risk of exploring?

    With a light, or feeling for...where one might be...
    It is. I think. I love your poetic posts, but I'm never quite sure what you're saying!
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    Think back to X-Men 108, when Moira 'died'(apparently not, according to Hickman, but...). Xavier and Jean and Cable were all able to interact with Moira's dying astral form*which was essentially her soul, it even goes into the light as she's dying. So in Marvel Comics, psionic energy is essentially analogous with life force/spiritual energy at some level(see the Phoenix Force, the sum of all life force/psionic energy of all sentient beings past/present/future; the spark of Life).

    moirasdeath1.jpg

    moiradeath2.jpg

    moiradeath4.jpg
    And that's what I mean. Astral ghosts, beside sharing the "aether" of life force, psionic energy and connections to the afterlife, retain all of their memories too. So it's beyond thoughts as a data form. For example, when Prodigy downloads the skills that are stored within the minds, does he download some parts of these people's souls? Doesn't seem like it. It's only data copied from another physical form. The distinction is what essential here imo.

  12. #147

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    Well, for one, I think these astral ghosts demonstrate a connection between telepathy and the soul. Two, I think Cerebro is basically recording the 'frequency' of a mutant. Everything can be thought of in terms of atoms/matter, but they can also be thought of in terms of frequency. From the beginning Cerebro was said to work by detecting the specific frequency in a mutant's mental energy signature(brainwaves) that would identify them as being X-Gene active. Hickman has taken that initial idea and factored it by Forge's tinkering with Shi'Ar tech(which is also sentient by its nature and can work with lifeforce). Furthermore, my position has always been one of nondualism, which is where you seem to be stuck at. Hickman and I are both saying that yes, Cerebro is recording their memories and thoughts, but also their soul signature, the anima as Hickman calls it. Through a nondualistic lens, it's always the intrinsic Godhead which suffuses anything and everything with spirituality. So there's no 'individual soul' to preserve, actually. It's all just Godhead. Godhead shaped in a Scott Summers body with Scott Summers memories and anima signature is just as much Scott as there ever was(because there never really was a "Scott Summers" to begin with, it was always just Godhead in costume).
    Last edited by yogaflame; 12-22-2019 at 11:45 PM.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  13. #148
    Amazing Member saahir's Avatar
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    Why do people believe Moira knew about Genosha's destruction? If it didn't happen in one of her past lives, she wouldn't have known about it ahead of time. And if it did happen in another life, I highly doubt it was destroyed the same way. Moira also wouldn't had known about the Decimation either. It seems like people are really reaching.

  14. #149
    Ultimate Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saahir View Post
    Why do people believe Moira knew about Genosha's destruction? If it didn't happen in one of her past lives, she wouldn't have known about it ahead of time. And if it did happen in another life, I highly doubt it was destroyed the same way. Moira also wouldn't had known about the Decimation either. It seems like people are really reaching.
    yeah makes no sense. If she truly is about preservation for mutantkind, it doesnt fit that she would not share this info with Xavier/Magneto so that they could be on alert to prevent the sentinel attack

  15. #150
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    I always assumed Genosha, Decimation, but also Resurrections and Krakoa, were Life X originals. Both Genosha and Decimation are regarded as things that slowed down mutants, so no reason for Moira not to try to stop it.

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