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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    So if my 37-year life was lived in the same place as yours, and ran in the same way as yours, I'd be on side and be upset at the dissent with you. But it didn't. ...
    That's a trivialized oversimplification, and you are mistaken, for I'm not upset at the dissent. On the contrary, I'm just questioning it, and trying to decipher its source(s) in the process.
    Last edited by Heroine Addict; 12-17-2019 at 06:53 PM.

  2. #107
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Made the classic trading cards and their alignment labels irrelevant....
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    Made the classic trading cards and their alignment labels irrelevant....
    I see. Well, if that's not worthy of impassioned discontent, then nothing is.

  4. #109
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    With some of the recurring rhetoric used by those that are vocally dissatisfied with HoX/PoX & DoX, I've been beginning to wonder if much of the apparent affront to sensibilities, stems from a more... generational standpoint.

  5. #110
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Maybe. I was born in 82. My first brush with Marvel was in 87 (when I saw the 1982 "Hulk" animated series on TV). My first exposure to X-Men was in 1991 (seeing the 1981 "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends," again on TV; Philippine programming was a tad slow importing foreign content in those years). The next year (92) I saw and started collecting the trading cards (local low-quality reproductions). The next year (93) the 1992 "X-Men" TAS landed on Philippine TV.

    I'm one of the biggest head-shakers at the HoxPoxDox. What does the above say about my...generational standpoint?
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroine Addict View Post
    With some of the recurring rhetoric used by those that are vocally dissatisfied with HoX/PoX & DoX, I've been beginning to wonder if much of the apparent affront to sensibilities, stems from a more... generational standpoint.
    You're presuming that the Krakoa setup is to be taken at face value and isn't misdirection to mask something different entirely going on behind the scenes.

    I have a strong feeling once we get to year 2 or 3 of Hickman's mega-arc, a lot of these arguments are going to be rendered moot.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    You're presuming that the Krakoa setup is to be taken at face value and isn't misdirection to mask something different entirely going on behind the scenes.

    I have a strong feeling once we get to year 2 or 3 of Hickman's mega-arc, a lot of these arguments are going to be rendered moot.
    That goes both ways, as do I. Seriously though, what I mean is, it doesn't change the opposite reactions to the way things were introduced & as they stand right now. But you could be right, I've suspected as much myself, of an eventual, revelatory evolving -- or at the very least, tweaking -- of the current status quo.

    My earlier point was that those unhappy with Hickman's relaunch, seem to share the commonality of preferring a more classic, altruistic version, of the X-Men premise and/or Mutant mythos. And that this new take supposedly does a severe disservice, to everything they've represented and stood for, in the past. It's not meant as disparaging, only observational.

    Another clarification I want to make, is about the purpose of this thread. It was to demonstrate that the self-explanatory titled HoX, was the result of PoX (Moira's 10 lives), which was the method of how it was arrived at. So whether you're pro, anti, or just plain indifferent, it's a legit in-story explanation for why things have become they way they... seemingly are.
    Last edited by Heroine Addict; 12-19-2019 at 10:50 AM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    … I'm one of the biggest head-shakers at the HoxPoxDox. What does the above say about my...generational standpoint?
    That you're a connoisseur of vintage product, prone to liking the way things were, and mostly how they've always been?

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroine Addict View Post
    That goes both ways, as do I. Seriously though, what I mean is, it doesn't change the opposite reactions to the way things were introduced & as they stand right now. But you could be right, I've suspected as much myself, of an eventual, revelatory evolving -- or at the very least, tweaking -- of the current status quo.

    My earlier point was that those unhappy with Hickman's relaunch, seem to share the commonality of preferring a more classic, altruistic version, of the X-Men premise and/or Mutant mythos. And that this new take does a severe disservice, to everything they've represented and stood for, in the past. It's not meant as disparaging, only observational.
    Taken at face value, the Krakoa setup and the in-story rationale for it is indeed a repudiation of the historic X-Men premise. So, yeah, it's rubbed a lot of people wrong. Though I'm pretty sure that's intentional on Hickman's part and may be part of the misdirection.

    Another clarification I want to make, is about the purpose of this thread. It was to demonstrate that the self-explanatory titled HoX, was the result of PoX (Moira's 10 lives), which was the method of how it was arrived at. So whether you're pro, anti, or just plain indifferent, it's a legit in-story explanation for why things have become they way they... seemingly are.
    The retcon makes sense on its own terms. Much of past X-Men continuity and characterization as originally written doesn't fit. That said, this is for all intents and purposes a reboot. Hickman has rewritten the X-Men timeline. Hence, there's no point in trying to reconcile it with what came before. Past events still "happened", just not the way they were originally portrayed.

    The butthurt comes from people trying to read this era as just a new chapter in the same book. It's not. It's a new book.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by FUBAR007 View Post
    Taken at face value, the Krakoa setup and the in-story rationale for it is indeed a repudiation of the historic X-Men premise. So, yeah, it's rubbed a lot of people wrong. Though I'm pretty sure that's intentional on Hickman's part and may be part of the misdirection.
    Yep:


    The retcon makes sense on its own terms. Much of past X-Men continuity and characterization as originally written doesn't fit. That said, this is for all intents and purposes a reboot. Hickman has rewritten the X-Men timeline. Hence, there's no point in trying to reconcile it with what came before. Past events still "happened", just not the way they were originally portrayed.
    Guess I'm one of those that's more than okay with taking the glossing it over or:



    approach.

    The butthurt comes from people trying to read this era as just a new chapter in the same book. It's not. It's a new book.
    Well said, and I like that POV.

  11. #116
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heroine Addict View Post
    That you're a connoisseur of vintage product, prone to liking the way things were, and mostly how they've always been?
    Then you know where I stand. I'm Catholic, but how did Martin Luther say it?
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  12. #117
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    Seems like the Krakoans are:


    ... getting that practice down pat.
    Last edited by Heroine Addict; 12-19-2019 at 07:03 PM.

  13. #118
    Casual Comics Reader/Fan Londo Bellian's Avatar
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    Good one. I was thinking "Here I stand, I can do no other," but I see your Martin quote rejoinder as proof positive that we are conceptually perpetually unable to meet eye to eye on Krakoa. A shame, but I'm resigned to it.

    That Diet of Worms declaration was supposedly apocryphal anyway.
    Genkai nante nai (No limits), Zettai nante nai (No absolutes)

    The Current Hill that I Risk Dying On: #KrakoaNEVERMYXMEN
    "I promise, I'll definitely save you. With my tenth and final life, I WILL PROTECT YOU, MUTANDOKA!" ~HoMoira Kinross Akemi

  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Londo Bellian View Post
    The scene with Xavier in Heaven post-death seem pretty awkward now. But hey, it's a human afterlife so Krakoan mutants want none of it.
    The more I think of Hickman's resurrection process, the more I like it. At first it seemed to fly in the face of the idea of a soul, or anima, as Hickman specifies. But if you think in terms of nondualism, that everything manifest or unmanifest is but a fraction of the totality that is Godhead, then the personalized notion of a soul is basically a misidentification of the Godhead as something special and unique. The individual soul is unique, like crystallized water(snowflakes), insofar as its 'shape', the memories and experiences and physical factors, which Hickman's process does account for. Cerebro is recording the shape(the data, and remember the Shi'Ar tech is in there, and all their tech is alive(Danger), and can store soul stuff(Jean Grey's holoempathic crystal Lilandra gave to her parents) of each soulflake, and the Five are replicating the idealized body, so when they are united, it very much is as much of you as you ever were, since the Godhead is still everpresent.

    We have seen Charles and Jean share people's deaths, even try to hold their souls from going somewhere else for a while(Moira and Annie Richardson, for example). and other psychics like Shadow King and Emma hop into other bodies or exist as disincarnated psionic entities, only to come into body again later(such as the most recent Elizabeth Braddock model). We've seen various forms of afterlife and Astral Planes all throughout, and there was never a contradiction. I think Hickman's works too.
    Let the flames destroy all but that which is pure and true!

  15. #120
    Militantly Indifferent Kisinith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yogaflame View Post
    The more I think of Hickman's resurrection process, the more I like it. At first it seemed to fly in the face of the idea of a soul, or anima, as Hickman specifies. But if you think in terms of nondualism, that everything manifest or unmanifest is but a fraction of the totality that is Godhead, then the personalized notion of a soul is basically a misidentification of the Godhead as something special and unique. The individual soul is unique, like crystallized water(snowflakes), insofar as its 'shape', the memories and experiences and physical factors, which Hickman's process does account for. Cerebro is recording the shape(the data, and remember the Shi'Ar tech is in there, and all their tech is alive(Danger), and can store soul stuff(Jean Grey's holoempathic crystal Lilandra gave to her parents) of each soulflake, and the Five are replicating the idealized body, so when they are united, it very much is as much of you as you ever were, since the Godhead is still everpresent.

    We have seen Charles and Jean share people's deaths, even try to hold their souls from going somewhere else for a while(Moira and Annie Richardson, for example). and other psychics like Shadow King and Emma hop into other bodies or exist as disincarnated psionic entities, only to come into body again later(such as the most recent Elizabeth Braddock model). We've seen various forms of afterlife and Astral Planes all throughout, and there was never a contradiction. I think Hickman's works too.
    I really like this take, well stated

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