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  1. #46
    Mighty Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    Think about it, the process of resurrection can be repeated infinitely. And there's no limit to how many cloned bodies there can be. Now, think about just two of them sitting there together. Same body down to molecule, some exact memories. How do you determine which one of the is the original?
    just want to apologize for my initial snark. lol.
    I understand what you're saying, and thats the point as far as i see it - they're the exact same, to the molecule as you said, and since they will forseeably never be in the same room as the "original" seeing as the original is dead they effectively are the original. They have the same memories, the same genetic makeup, the same everything.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member Knives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    If a terrorist wants to kill me, I don't care how he is justified to do so, neither how much he has suffered.
    Right you just think about protecting yourself and those you love.

    Not everyone wants war and not all are monsters want decimation on the other side but for various reasons sometimes the worst case scenario happens regardless of how much good will there is to prevent it.

    Every conflict is a vicious circle that is fueled by a sequence of events where each side hurts the other by escalating hatred and the situation so far that neither side can see any other way but the armed conflict and destruction on the other side.

    Even today despite human evolution the only reason for world wars not to happen is the simple fear of using weapons of mass destruction otherwise wars would have continued between the most powerful countries in the world.
    Last edited by Knives; 12-15-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  3. #48
    BANNED spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adamTPTK View Post
    The answer is, they both are just copies.
    Time travel is also laughable when isn't moderated. That's what I say, things need to be streamlined, not get messed up further.
    Human vs. mutant is a central theme of the X-comics. It doesn't mean it's right, it's just is.
    Yeah, I think they complicated the whole thing;

    Everytime they die, a sould goes to afterlife, all they have is a soul's copy. Tis going to bite them back

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by houndsofluv View Post
    just want to apologize for my initial snark. lol.
    I understand what you're saying, and thats the point as far as i see it - they're the exact same, to the molecule as you said, and since they will forseeably never be in the same room as the "original" seeing as the original is dead they effectively are the original. They have the same memories, the same genetic makeup, the same everything.
    No need to apologize, at least your question was engaging
    I guess I should've explained what I meant better. I was talking about a hypothetical scenario where POST MORTEM (for some reason I thought it was obvious because I mentioned two COPIES), two replicas are being made instead of one. And in that technically possible WHAT IF scenario, the question I asked before will arise.
    Hickman even touched on that in one of his data pages citing that duplications have to necessarily be avoided.
    RCO020_1568811166.jpg

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    Of course Cassandra and the humans who created the killer machines she used are all innocent .

    The mutant vaccine that the governments used or the zero tolerance operation that was authorized by the US government, M-Pox nobody is responsible for these events is all a big coincidence.
    Some of these people have been dealt with already. It’s not like your average Genoshan citizen would have the power to do anything about it, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knives View Post
    As it is comics I have no way of knowing but I wonder given human nature if it were possible to save the Jews killed by Hitler by bringing them back to life what would happen ?
    It would probably be terrible. Most everyone they knew would be dead. They’d have to adjust to modern life and a wildly different culture. They’d have to face the memories of their nightmarish experiences and grisly deaths.

    Pure hubris

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member Glio's Avatar
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    Almost all of your favorite characters died in Secret Wars and the ones there are now are only replicas created by Franklin Richards.

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    Some of these people have been dealt with already. It’s not like your average Genoshan citizen would have the power to do anything about it, anyway.



    It would probably be terrible. Most everyone they knew would be dead. They’d have to adjust to modern life and a wildly different culture. They’d have to face the memories of their nightmarish experiences and grisly deaths.

    Pure hubris
    Mutants are resurrected w/o the memory of their death. Krakoa is full of empaths and telepaths to help with readjusting and give them free therapy, plus the nation is crazy rich and they wouldn't have monetary problems that could occur from coming back from the dead.

    The only nightmare they would face is burocracy, should they come back to a human nation and should they want their previous identities and money back, but since we're talking Genoshans I guess they are down about living on a mutant nation.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    I get the feeling that Hickman had Moira said what she said, including Xavier's love being shameful, as his way of criticizing the previous writers that grossly mismanaging Xavier's dream by not updating it accordingly and just essentially tormenting the mutants over and over again to the point of dreary and dystopian redundancy.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veitha View Post
    Mutants are resurrected w/o the memory of their death. Krakoa is full of empaths and telepaths to help with readjusting and give them free therapy, plus the nation is crazy rich and they wouldn't have monetary problems that could occur from coming back from the dead.

    The only nightmare they would face is burocracy, should they come back to a human nation and should they want their previous identities and money back, but since we're talking Genoshans I guess they are down about living on a mutant nation.
    Aren’t mutants going to wonder how they died? Will they be okay with having their memory tampered with? What if they were ripped from heaven or some other afterlife? What if they don’t like Krakoa? Reintegrating into the human world will be dangerous and cost money they don’t have.

    Look, I like Hox/Pox and the idea of resurrection. I just think on a human level it’s really messy and complicated and I’d like to see at least one mutant be like ‘what the f*** is this? I wish I was still dead!’

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    Aren’t mutants going to wonder how they died? Will they be okay with having their memory tampered with? What if they were ripped from heaven or some other afterlife? What if they don’t like Krakoa? Reintegrating into the human world will be dangerous and cost money they don’t have.

    Look, I like Hox/Pox and the idea of resurrection. I just think on a human level it’s really messy and complicated and I’d like to see at least one mutant be like ‘what the f*** is this? I wish I was still dead!’
    All good questions that definitely need addressing, I agree!

    I'm most concerned about the whole not remembering their death thing; not that I want the characters to have to go through constant PTSD and trauma over it, but, at the least, I do think they have the right to approach someone about wanting to remember if only as a means of getting closure. That whole "But why? What the hell?"--it can be complicated and hellish but, say if we're comparing it to a repressed memory of trauma, it often doesn't do well for the sufferer to just forget it completely. If anything it can create a sort of disconnect in reality--but then, that is mental health specific, I do concede.

    Either way I was actually frustrated in the preview I saw with Rahne just hand-waving it away completely; like that was basically the narrative saying "I don't care to address it," which kind of weakens its' intent, to be honest.

    It is a wonderful thing, but for the characters sake it does need to be questioned on a more introspective level from those revived; strong concepts get challenged all the time and always come out the richer for it.

    And then, that's not even mentioning, like you said; what if the revive-ee doesn't adjust to Krakoan life any better than their previous life? What if it's all just as bad but for different reasons?

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member AbnormallyNormal's Avatar
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    My biggest problem is that it really does not make any sense, this retcon. WHY would Xavier and Magneto act the way they had in 616 IF they had met with Moira way back when and she showed them all this info? It. Makes. No. Sense. At all !!!

    Why wouldn't they have immediately started banding together and trying to establish a mutant stronghold right away? Remember this is exactly what Moira V was... it was basically a form of Genosha but then supposedly sentinels destroyed it. So I feel like this Moira X is basically Moira V except somehow "trying harder"? Idk.

    That's the issue though, Hickman can't actually do anything to truly retcon 616 majorly because it won't be accepted and would undo way too much history. So this whole retcon just doesn't work (you have to bend your mind into pretzels and say insane stuff like "actually Genosha being destroyed was a good thing and all part of helping mutants, also Xavier and Magneto constantly fighting each other and seemingly being totally oblivious and unaware of Moira's grand plan is the secret path to total cooperation").

    Another issue: very little effort put into showing the transition from end of Uncanny to beginning of Dawn of X. Like almost none. That's a problem.

    Whole thing is still being considered by me as a giant AU and I still think Moira XI will undo everything. Now, it's an interesting and enjoyable AU for sure... but yeah.
    Forget the old ways - Krakoa is god.

    OBEY

  12. #57
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    My biggest problem is that it really does not make any sense, this retcon. WHY would Xavier and Magneto act the way they had in 616 IF they had met with Moira way back when and she showed them all this info? It. Makes. No. Sense. At all !!!

    Why wouldn't they have immediately started banding together and trying to establish a mutant stronghold right away? Remember this is exactly what Moira V was... it was basically a form of Genosha but then supposedly sentinels destroyed it. So I feel like this Moira X is basically Moira V except somehow "trying harder"? Idk.

    That's the issue though, Hickman can't actually do anything to truly retcon 616 majorly because it won't be accepted and would undo way too much history. So this whole retcon just doesn't work (you have to bend your mind into pretzels and say insane stuff like "actually Genosha being destroyed was a good thing and all part of helping mutants, also Xavier and Magneto constantly fighting each other and seemingly being totally oblivious and unaware of Moira's grand plan is the secret path to total cooperation").
    There is not, and there has never been, a retcon that fits 100% with all the previous stories, and that will only get worse the more stories Marvel makes.

    That said, Hickman clearly showed they needed some pieces in place (for example, the resurrections needed Tempus, Goldballs and Hope), and that neither Xavier nor Magneto were 100% in on it from the start, specially Mags.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Another issue: very little effort put into showing the transition from end of Uncanny to beginning of Dawn of X. Like almost none. That's a problem.
    I agree, but editorial is to blame on this one, because they wasted time with Age of X-man and Disassembled non-sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    Whole thing is still being considered by me as a giant AU and I still think Moira XI will undo everything. Now, it's an interesting and enjoyable AU for sure... but yeah.
    Yeah, Marvel is not going to undo every single story in their universe, specially with this one selling like it is.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    My biggest problem is that it really does not make any sense, this retcon. WHY would Xavier and Magneto act the way they had in 616 IF they had met with Moira way back when and she showed them all this info? It. Makes. No. Sense. At all !!!

    Why wouldn't they have immediately started banding together and trying to establish a mutant stronghold right away? Remember this is exactly what Moira V was... it was basically a form of Genosha but then supposedly sentinels destroyed it. So I feel like this Moira X is basically Moira V except somehow "trying harder"? Idk.

    That's the issue though, Hickman can't actually do anything to truly retcon 616 majorly because it won't be accepted and would undo way too much history. So this whole retcon just doesn't work (you have to bend your mind into pretzels and say insane stuff like "actually Genosha being destroyed was a good thing and all part of helping mutants, also Xavier and Magneto constantly fighting each other and seemingly being totally oblivious and unaware of Moira's grand plan is the secret path to total cooperation").

    Another issue: very little effort put into showing the transition from end of Uncanny to beginning of Dawn of X. Like almost none. That's a problem.

    Whole thing is still being considered by me as a giant AU and I still think Moira XI will undo everything. Now, it's an interesting and enjoyable AU for sure... but yeah
    .
    That's not an issue. That's the point. Uncanny is largely irrelevant. We don't need to see the journey because it's not that important.

    And come on now...this isn't an AU we went through all this with HoX. This is the 616 not some alternate future that's gonna SUDDENLY be reset years down the line. This is the current X-Men universe. Get used to it.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Veitha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegan Daddy View Post
    Aren’t mutants going to wonder how they died? Will they be okay with having their memory tampered with? What if they were ripped from heaven or some other afterlife? What if they don’t like Krakoa? Reintegrating into the human world will be dangerous and cost money they don’t have.

    Look, I like Hox/Pox and the idea of resurrection. I just think on a human level it’s really messy and complicated and I’d like to see at least one mutant be like ‘what the f*** is this? I wish I was still dead!’
    As I said, this can be easily dealt with considering the resources they have (empathy and telepathy can help them to cope with their feelings and eventually they can find out about their deaths, I think the memory tampering is to avoid panic since the last thing they would remember is being slaughtered or something on that line). Money is not really a problem for Krakoans.

    This is an interesting topic that I hope gets explored, but it doesn't seem to me like a violation. They're waking up on mutant paradise after a long period of sleep, that's how I think most of them are going to see this.

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by AbnormallyNormal View Post
    My biggest problem is that it really does not make any sense, this retcon. WHY would Xavier and Magneto act the way they had in 616 IF they had met with Moira way back when and she showed them all this info? It. Makes. No. Sense. At all !!!

    Why wouldn't they have immediately started banding together and trying to establish a mutant stronghold right away? Remember this is exactly what Moira V was... it was basically a form of Genosha but then supposedly sentinels destroyed it. So I feel like this Moira X is basically Moira V except somehow "trying harder"? Idk.

    That's the issue though, Hickman can't actually do anything to truly retcon 616 majorly because it won't be accepted and would undo way too much history. So this whole retcon just doesn't work (you have to bend your mind into pretzels and say insane stuff like "actually Genosha being destroyed was a good thing and all part of helping mutants, also Xavier and Magneto constantly fighting each other and seemingly being totally oblivious and unaware of Moira's grand plan is the secret path to total cooperation")..
    Magneto DID start to work with them...until the falling out, when he started Genushia... that only happened in this time line.
    In the real world i would be BOTH pro registration and Pro mutant rights. Xavier and Trask were both right.

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