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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    John had a couple of episodes of Justice League where he was the central character. Like when when he was taken to oa when accused of destroying a planet, the brave and the bold episode where he and Wally took on gorilla grodd, the Despero episode, his ship with Hawkgirl and the convoluted history they share. That show did a lot for him.

    I would love it if Kyle would get his main character status back. He's actually my favorite lantern.
    Okay but the show did not succeed because John was the main Green Lantern instead of Hal. When they started making animated Justice League movies they started using Hal and they still made money. Neither of them was the reason a Justice League series or movie was successful. It had more going for it than them. He had some good stuff in that show definitley. But this idea that it proved he was successful (especially if the contrast is Hal wasn't successful) is not accurate. They could taken out all the Green Lantern's and made Aquaman a main member and it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

    I like all the Green Lanterns, I'd rather it be an ensemble. I think you can do interesting things with all of them. The show would be worse if it was limited to just one, but realistically if it was, it should be either Hal or Kyle because the stories were designed around them being the main Green Lantern and Guy and John were more placeholders or guys who could sub in as members of different teams despite having a few pretty good stories. I didn't see the need to limit it. If you're going to CGI Kilowag or Sinestro there is no reason you can't hire a few guys to play the other Green Lanterns and you can't have an episode or arc that focuses more on one than the other.

    My opinion it should be like Star Trek where you have have Hal (Kirk), John (Spock), Kyle (McCoy). That way they can each have their own strengths, you can have different episodes featuring each one, and none of them has to be perfect because the other character has a skill set to compliment them.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Why are we bringing race into this?e
    Because it absolutely is the problem. Hal Jordan's return to prominence in the comics under Geoff Johns' run was absolutely an attempt to nullify John Stewart's greater fame. Dwayne McDuffie who wrote the TV show and the comics got a lot of heat for working with John by fans who later clamored over Johns' run. Think about it, if John Stewart was a white character who broke big in an adaptation and got into comics and made prominent again, nobody would have batted an eye because that's part of the plan. But the minute it happens to an African-American character everyone loses their minds.

    Hal Jordan gets multiple goddamn chances. He was a failing character in the '80s, he was seen as a bore and dullard by most comics fans, and yeah I will admit that Emerald Twilight and Zero Hour was a raw deal for him (they should have given him a Death of Captain Marvel type sendoff, that he deserves), but the fact is that character wasn't popular, he didn't sell Green Lantern to the non-comics audience, which is what John Stewart did. When did most people hear the GL Oat for the first time, in the second episode of the Justice League, also where they met the Guardians, Kilowog and the Manhunters.

    Then the movie failed, which at least proved once again how unpopular Jordan was/is but instead here we are a decade later and he's still getting another chance. Just because he's a generic white male lead and long-term DC fans are opposed to diversity even at the expense of proven success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    I Vividly remember some people being pissed about Ryan Reymonds casting when the movie was announced because fans thought that DC was whitewashing the character. A lot of people of my generation grew up with John as their lantern thanks to Justice League.
    That's the only great piece of media that any Green Lantern was ever part of. That introduced everyone to Oa, the Guardians, the Oath, the Manhunters, Kilowog and so on. If John Stewart had been white, he absolutely would have replaced Jordan after that much success as franchise lead. John Stewart deserved to be made the Franchise lead, and instead they gave it to the same loser over and now they are doing it again. All because Geoff Johns has convinced enough people at DC that he's more than a writer of maybe a few above-average comics and he used to assist Richard Donner despite having nothing but a record of failure in managing adaptations of movie properties, failure to turn out a single great cartoon and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    That movie would've been awful if it starred John yet nothing else was changed. It has NOTHING to do with Hal.
    The Green Lantern 2011 was a by-the-numbers white male action movie where a "Top Gun" a--hole who breaks the rules gets free passes and into any girl's pants because of his white privilege. Everything in that movie failed because it was centered on Hal Jordan specifically as a character.

  3. #18
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    Told you guys it was a race thing for a lot of John fans

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    The social medial comments at the time of 2011's release about white washing GL kind of points to those fans not even knowing John's name. If they did, they'd know there are more than one Earth GL, and the name "Hal Jordan" was all over that trailer. How invested were they really if they couldn't even remember John's name?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The only way to get Green Lantern right is to make John Stewart the main and only Green Lantern.

    He was the only GL to crossover and make it big, which he did in the Justice League cartoon. Unfortunately, thanks to Geoff Johns and his largely (malign) influence on DC, that's not going to be allowed to happen.
    JL was a big step for John, but it also ended over a decade ago. And didn't do much for the GL mythos as a whole even while it was on.

    That's not much reason by itself to justify making him the lead or only Earth GL. Especially when his main storyline was with Shayera, a story they cannot really replicate in the comics nor is guaranteed to be touched upon by later creators.

    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Jordan is a terrible lead. Nothing about him as a character is interesting or engaging. He the type of character that has interesting things happen around and none of it is because of him. Star Sapphire is great because of Carol, you don't need Hal around for Sinestro to work.
    All the comments of "Jordan is a terrible lead" that we see in these types of threads just read as sour grapes to me, sorry. JL proved that you kind of need Hal around to make Sinestro or Sapphire work, otherwise you can't do jack with them. Or you could give their dynamic to John, but that's pretty much admitting that John (or any other Earth GL of your choice) doesn't have much going for him if you have to give him Hal's stuff. If Hal is such a failure, why does his stuff get farmed out to the others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    That movie would've been awful if it starred John yet nothing else was changed. It has NOTHING to do with Hal.
    Exactly. Even Hal Jordan fans don't want anything to do with that fucking thing, which tells you all you need to know. None of the appealing things about the character made it into the movie, why would they even like it? And my that metric, bigger characters like Superman and Batman are failures as well because they both have their share of bad movies and other content. As do Spider-Man, Captain America, the X-Men...

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Green Lantern 2011 was a by-the-numbers white male action movie where a "Top Gun" a--hole who breaks the rules gets free passes and into any girl's pants because of his white privilege. Everything in that movie failed because it was centered on Hal Jordan specifically as a character.
    And again, Hal Jordan fans hate that movie. So clearly it was not created to center on Hal specifically, or at least botched the job unbelievably and exaggerated all his worst traits (which ALL comic book characters have, and have had done to them) and downplayed/erased all other aspects, in addition to just being a really shitty, poorly put together movie.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 12-15-2019 at 08:53 AM.

  5. #20
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Told you guys it was a race thing for a lot of John fans
    Speaking personally for myself it isn't about race. I would honestly be fine if they pass the franchise baton to the other earth lanterns. Hal had his chances and fell on his face. It's time for a different approach for other media.

  6. #21
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Peter Parker as Spider-Man hadn't had a good movie since 2004 before the MCU. Guess that was proof they should use Miles instead of Peter... no wait, it isn't.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KNIGHT OF THE LAKE View Post
    Told you guys it was a race thing for a lot of John fans
    Considering the importance of Black Panther, Storm, Blade, Black Lightning, and most recently Miles Morales on modern pop culture, being a race thing isn't a bad thing -- and it's not like at the end of the day anyone can just shower their race away like Rachel Dolezal. It's like complaining that Golden Girls is an age and gender thing. If you want to expand race beyond comics to greater sci-fi, Sisko being the lead of DS9 is a large reason for the show's longevity; race (in Earth terms) wasn't discussed in the prequel trilogy, but just seeing a Black face as a Jedi meant Mace Windu was important from a representation standpoint. It means a shared imagination that can conceive of Black folks in a variety of important roles is an intentionally inclusive imagination -- there is no harm, and indeed it is more grounded, in purposefully creating a diverse cast.

    (And if the counter is character should matter more than skin color, every single person mentioned up there has more than plenty character. No character, regardless of race, makes that big of an impact without being well-fleshed out first. How many non-Black people like the Black Panther because he's cunning, dignified, and reminds them of qualities in their own close Black friends? That also matters because Black people are in their lives and thus in their imaginations, too.)

    ----

    Anyway, if this show stems closer to the prestige of Watchmen (without necessarily the grittiness) and the scope of the Arrowverse (without the Power Rangers-light campiness), I think it would be off to a good start. Hal Jordan and Guy Gardner were two of my earliest faves as a kid, and I really liked Kyle Rayner's run. JL/JLU exposed me to John Stewart, like so many others.

    Tbh, I wouldn't mind it being led by any of those lanterns (ok, maybe not Guy*), though logic dictates that it does come down to Jordan (the most established) or Stewart (who does have a decent track record). But there's also nothing to stop them from creating their own Green Lantern for the sake of more creative freedom/less baggage to the source material. I would, however, expect the old favorites to show up in some capacity if they take that route, however.

    *okay, upon further thought, a little bit of tweaking could make Guy into a gruffer MCU Peter Quill. MCU's Quill is a bit different than comics' Quill; but both Guy and MCU Quill are impulsive braggadocios who like a good scrap. Guy's just angrier while Quill is more of a buffoon.
    Last edited by Cyke; 12-15-2019 at 09:25 AM.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Peter Parker as Spider-Man hadn't had a good movie since 2004 before the MCU.
    Spider-Man did have successful movies and adaptations. HAL JORDAN NEVER DID, NOT EVEN ONCE.

    See the difference.

    Guess that was proof they should use Miles instead of Peter...
    As it is, the MCU Spider-Man borrowed a lot from Miles anyway. Read up on MCU Spider-Man and whiteboy Miles is not far.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    You know that phrase, "when all you have are hammers, all you're going to see are nails?"

    If being in the JL cartoon gave John "the right" to star in movies, why wasn't there a Hawkgirl movie? Or a Martian Manhunter movie?

    If someone wants to argue for wanting John as the lead, sure - a case can be made. If someone wants to make a case for not going with Hal - you can make a case for that too, (hey, go with Jessica - she's in a successful cartoon that wasn't over ten years ago - it's just as valid as saying Hal should be in it because he was in "Superfriends") But it's not an either/or situation and it's definitely just your opinion/desire/sour grapes.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Hal was in one bad movie. Ok. That movie wasn't bad due to Hal, because again, even Hal fans hated it. It was just a big dumb horribly put together mess, and Hal was the least of its issues.

    I didn't even suggest to exclude John. I said that Hal/John should be dual leads as a buddy cop, with the supporting cast mainly being aliens. Later, they can introduce other human Lanterns like Guy, Kyle, Simon and Jessica. GL works best as an ensemble piece, as I said. No need to exclude anyone.

  11. #26
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    It's kind of hard to ignore the "it's mainly about race" stuff with John because that seems to be the main crux of the arguments in favor of him being the lead. And due to the need for more diversity, it's not hard to see why some convincing arguments could spring from that. But as someone else said, he appears to be the least consistently portrayed of the Earth GLs. I think a lot of the stuff that made it into the JL cartoon, like his milirary background, didn't have a basis in the comics at that time.

    So he's a black character, but is always a good black character? T'Challa, Storm, Blade and Luke Cage are all great black characters. To a lesser extent, even though they are not as pushed, Cyborg (when he's with the Titans at least), Vixen, Static, Black Lighting and the X-Men's Bishop can be great as well. And they are not sharing their codenames with 5-6 other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spider-Man did have successful movies and adaptations. HAL JORDAN NEVER DID, NOT EVEN ONCE.

    See the difference.
    Hal has one failed movie. The GL cartoon being cancelled is a little more gray. It had to do more with low toy sales and the expensive CGI animation than anything else. It was otherwise well received from what I can tell, so I don't know if we can consider that a true failure.

    It's really no different than Spectacular Spider-Man getting cancelled for a similar bullshit corporate reasons. I still miss that show.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 12-15-2019 at 09:39 AM.

  12. #27
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hybrid View Post
    Hal was in one bad movie. Ok. That movie wasn't bad due to Hal, because again, even Hal fans hated it. It was just a big dumb horribly put together mess, and Hal was the least of its issues.

    I didn't even suggest to exclude John. I said that Hal/John should be dual leads as a buddy cop, with the supporting cast mainly being aliens. Later, they can introduce other human Lanterns like Guy, Kyle, Simon and Jessica. GL works best as an ensemble piece, as I said. No need to exclude anyone.
    You ask what we wanted to see out of it. Not having Hal as the lead is what I want.

  13. #28
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Hal has one failed movie. The GL cartoon being cancelled is a little more gray. It had to do more with low toy sales and the expensive CGI animation than anything else. It was otherwise well received from what I can tell, so I don't know if we can consider that a true failure.

    It's really no different than Spectacular Spider-Man getting cancelled for a similar bullshit corporate reasons.
    It is a true failure. Young Justice was also cancelled when GL did and guess which one made the comeback? YJ also had a crappy tie in video game.

  14. #29
    Mighty Member Hybrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    You ask what we wanted to see out of it. Not having Hal as the lead is what I want.
    I think this topic is getting played out.

    Here are the things I want to see:
    1. The rest of the supporting cast should mainly be aliens, because of the cosmic focus.
    2. Mature writing, none of that kiddie CW crap. I wouldn't be surprised if it's TV-MA if it's like the comics, with the violence and sexuality being present and uncensored. On top of that, just mature themes and be no holds barred in terms of storytelling.
    3. Speaking of which, don't tie this into the CW 'verse. I've heard it rumored in the past, but I think they backed out. Anyways, this series doesn't need to be part of that teen drama verse and should instead be a fresh start.
    4. Heavy focus on the sci-fi, and have the feel of a "space opera meets cop drama" by combining the epic scope of the former with the police procedural elements of the latter.
    5. Have extensive worldbuilding as they establish the way the universe works (a major problem with the 2011 movie was lack of time).
    6. Get the effects right. I think Green Lantern will need them the most of any superhero, so don't screw it up.
    Here are the rest of the things I mentioned. Anything else to note? I kinda want to discuss something other than the debate of John vs. Hal vs. Everyone Else because it's clearly not going anywhere.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    The way to go is to center it around John Stewart and import everything from the Justice League cartoons into the movies.

    Green Lantern is about an Earthman in Space. It's a reverse-Superman (an alien among Earthlings). For that you need a character who to some extent fits better or feels more at home in Space among the Lanterns than he maybe does among Earth. That's why John Stewart was the ideal Green Lantern. In the Justice League, a runnng thread with him was his sense that he was becoming his job, that he maybe felt more comfortable in space than in Earth, heck he even tried to get a transfer to another sector and leave Earth for a while.

    Whereas Hal Jordan is basically too Earth-centric. You can see this in the 2011 movie where most of the action is set on Earth, and that's a terrible approach and a failure. Hal Jordan is a very dated character. Hal Jordan was never a very important character as people assume
    http://www.comicscube.com/2011/03/wh...ortant-as.html

    In general the Green Lantern movies need to be like James Gunn's Guardians of the Galaxy, it has to by outer space, for outer space, of outer space. John Stewart as a character fits that mould, his most famous relationships whether it's Katma Tui or Shayera Hol are with aliens. Sinestro is primarily a Green Lantern Corps villain and not a Hal Jordan villain, and Katma Tui comes from the same planet that Sinestro does so there's a personal connection you can work between Sinestro and Stewart, far more than with Jordan. The ultimate approach should be that Green Lantern should be the center of the cosmic side. I mean make the Rann-Thanawar war into a Green Lantern story, and that way you can do the John-Shayera romance. Nobody gives a damn about Katar Hol anyway. The Justice League cartoons made Despero into a GL-centric story. More can be done on that front.

    The problem with DC since Dan Didio and Geoff Johns is this attempt to make the Silver Age the one true thing. That meant that Wally West was kneecapped in favor of Barry Allen (another dull character who got a perfect sendoff) over Mark Waid's objections. The Speed-Force and all the Flash-mythos was created for Wally but in adaptations was given to Barry which makes that on some level even more galling. Still Barry Allen has had success on that TV Show whereas Hal Jordan hasn't had any of that. Shayera Hol likewise as Hawkgirl broke out and became a big character but instead of making her into a major female superheroine or anti-heroine, they instead go to the well and give Hawkman endless second chances to the point that his continuity is unreadable. And again the more second chances people give to old white relics just creates a toxic culture of fan nostalgia that makes gatekeeping happen.

    It was Didio and Johns that drove me to Marvel. They are the ones as much as Zack Snyder that cost DC it's own Shared Universe on the movies. And yet there's been no punishment, no consequences. It's ridiculous.

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