Batman #85 talk.

[millernumber1]

Not according to the continuous flow of hatred the readers and commentators are projecting or the immense relief of its end.

But for me, I took a liking to this run, don't know why but i did.

Well, I said my piece let the merciless mockery of my apparent lack of taste commence.

Well, I also really like the run. It's got flaws - in this issue, I think the Killing Joke Batman/Thomas scene in Arkham is superfluous, though thematically tied in - but on the whole, it's engaged me and made me love Bruce as a character more than any previous run.

[Inversed]

yep, here is me of the annoyed ones
this is by far what I hated the most about the issue
It completely feels like editorial handling the rule of "Batman cant be married" and then King trying to go around that rule in such a way that it doesnt matter

So they are a couple now, and not every couple needs to be married, Its trying to take a more mature approach
here is the problem
Bruce proposed
and Catwoman said yes
and everything that was stoping it from happening is out of the way
by not getting married it is pretty much the narrative equivalent of showing a gun getting loaded on act one only to never be fired.
It is the absolute anticlimax and it is made worst the exchange between Batman and Gotham Girl just taunting "when is the wedding? am I invited? etc"

I do feel sorry for King because he is an extremely talented writer
for those here who keep complaining about this run week after week go read The Visions and Mr Miracle to understand why he deserved his Eisners's nominations and wins.
But here I could feel the shadow of the editorial interfering with some points and him not being able land others.

I dunno, yeah its clearly still some semblance of a compromise, but they at least made a good argument.

They literally do go "Let's get married right now", but then after forgetting the judge, they're basically all like "It's the same amount of legality whether we do it in front of him or not, so who cares?"

And honestly if they did go do it in front of the judge, you could just as easily have another writer or editorial eventually go, "Welllllll, its not on a piece of paper and not in front of everyone, so it doesn't count." They got the rings, they show how much they love each other, there's about an 80% chance they're gonna have a kid soon, they're married.

[Korath]

Not according to the continuous flow of hatred the readers and commentators are projecting or the immense relief of its end.

But for me, I took a liking to this run, don't know why but i did.

Well, I said my piece let the merciless mockery of my apparent lack of taste commence.

I talked about the issue 85, I really don't like King's run. But this final issue was not the worst of them all.

[lilyrose]

Yeah, you know- I guess it is technically true that if they were never going to have a piece of paper and file it legally, then doing the ceremony in front of a judge wouldn't have made it legal either.

But in that case, I would have preferred it if King even had them go through with some sort of civil union ceremony or something, just to make it look a little more concrete. Because what he did here- have Selina put her ring back on, make it clear they both want to get married, and then have her declare they're "forever" (I assume she's living with him again), it feels like he really did WANT to marry them for real but DC wouldn't allow it, so he tried to make it as close as possible.

But again, if that's the case, even some sort of "commitment ceremony" with rings that they just do themselves would have been nicer for the people who suffered through the non-wedding. It's not like I don't buy into couples who prefer to remain common law married or something, but at least show us the vows, you know?

Also, this status quo is just WAY too easy to undo and any writer can just ignore it if they want. Obviously Tynian isn't doing that, so maybe DC wants them to still be together (for now), and we still have that promised big change supposedly on the way in Bat/Cat. I have no idea though- other than them having Helena, what could it be? I think that HAS to be it at this point. If DC allows the birth of Helena and the introduction of her into the main universe, that does make for a big change, and probably one that sticks (esp if they age her up by moving the timelines around in 5G). And it solidifies Bruce and Selina's relationship forever even more than a marriage could, tbh. So maybe that's it.

[Arnoldoaad]

I dunno, yeah its clearly still some semblance of a compromise, but they at least made a good argument.

They literally do go "Let's get married right now", but then after forgetting the judge, they're basically all like "It's the same amount of legality whether we do it in front of him or not, so who cares?"

And honestly if they did go do it in front of the judge, you could just as easily have another writer or editorial eventually go, "Welllllll, its not on a piece of paper and not in front of everyone, so it doesn't count." They got the rings, they show how much they love each other, there's about an 80% chance they're gonna have a kid soon, they're married.

I agree with all of those points
basically in their minds they are married
I have 2 problems with this

the first one is that, it was never really about Catwoman marring Batman, its really more about Selina Kyle marring Bruce Wayne
there is n aspect of the public not awknoledging it that makes it feel like it didnt happen and therefore it didnt matter
it is kinda the same as with the the Robin's where it is kind of an understanding that all of them are the adopted sons and legit son of batman but no one questions anything about the mother or anything like that
I always thought that there is a great Batman/Robins story that actually never happen about someone trying to dig deeper into why would a playboy came out with an illegitimate son and it didnt made it into the news.
same with selina

my second problem
It is also made so that it is easier to ignore that they are together
thought it really depends of what other writers do with them as a couple, I feel like done like this makes it so htat it doesnt actually need to even be awknowlege

Think it like this
One of the biggest failures of Spiderman is that for all the time that he was married to Mary Jane there is really no stories about them being married. is like she is just there and thats it.
now mind you, this was more of a failure of the writers and editorial than the actual marriege but this is the one that is blamed the most.
I feel like that is what will happen with Catwoman
yeah, she lives with BW on his mansion but...
is she really there?

[AnakinFlair]

yep, here is me of the annoyed ones
this is by far what I hated the most about the issue
It completely feels like editorial handling the rule of "Batman cant be married" and then King trying to go around that rule in such a way that it doesnt matter

So they are a couple now, and not every couple needs to be married, Its trying to take a more mature approach
here is the problem
Bruce proposed
and Catwoman said yes
and everything that was stoping it from happening is out of the way
by not getting married it is pretty much the narrative equivalent of showing a gun getting loaded on act one only to never be fired.
It is the absolute anticlimax and it is made worst the exchange between Batman and Gotham Girl just taunting "when is the wedding? am I invited? etc"

I do feel sorry for King because he is an extremely talented writer
for those here who keep complaining about this run week after week go read The Visions and Mr Miracle to understand why he deserved his Eisners's nominations and wins.
But here I could feel the shadow of the editorial interfering with some points and him not being able land others.

I'm actually wondering if they didn't have them get married here because Editorial will allow King to do it in his miniseries. And I bet that was always the plan, even when he was going to write 100 issues- that the wedding would happen on his last issue.

As for King- here's the thing. I have no desire to read a book about Mister Miracle. I have no desire to read a book about the Visions. All I have to go by is his work on Batman, which I do want to read. And I'll agree that he's a talented writer- the date night with Bruce/Selina and Clark/Lois is still one of my favorite issues- on a whole, the guy is extremely disappointing. I feel like he was told that he could write 100 issues, but he only had enough story for maybe 45. And so he just kept.

Stretching.

It.

Out.


I also don't like the resolution with Gotham Girl, or the fact that we got nothing about the rest of the Bat family who got mind-screwed by Psycho Pirate. I get that Gotham Girl was a victim to an extent (was she getting dosed with Venom, or was she willingly taking it to gain powers?), but there should be some blowback about what she did to Captain Atom at least. And I wanted at least one scene of Batman forcing Psycho Pirate to undo what he did to the rest of the family. But I don' think we even saw them at all.


All in all, thank god this ****'s done. Bring on the next guy!

[lefthanded]

I'm not as riled up against Tom King as it seems most people are here. I thought this ending was fine but a little underwhelming.

I don't mind Tom King's choices ('cat.... bat''' repetition, etc), but I felt that his editing choices in this issue didn't really add anything the the experience or interpretation. It feels like he's trying to copy Lindelof in his TV shows with the constant shifting of scenes in times. Here in this issue, it seems mostly abrupt and unconnected.

I am a little confused as to how Bat/Cat were able to win. It seems they planned the whole time that Thomas would mind control Catwoman with Psycho Pirate, so that means they knew the whole time that their plan the past few issues would fail (eg. Batfamily wouldn't be able to beat him, that Bane is not the true villain, etc). I can accept that this was a backup plan in case the main plan failed. So, if we take this premise to be true, is what happened that Psycho Pirate mind controlled Catwoman, but since Catwoman has a part of Scarface, she:
A. Can't be controlled? B. She told Wesker before she got controlled to help her break free of mind control? C. How is Wesker able to compell Psycho Pirate to do something?

[Arnoldoaad]

I'm actually wondering if they didn't have them get married here because Editorial will allow King to do it in his miniseries. And I bet that was always the plan, even when he was going to write 100 issues- that the wedding would happen on his last issue.

I dnt believe for a second that they will be married now
think about it
why reserve something so big to a mini series like Batman/Catwoman instead of Batman 100, or even here?

As for King- here's the thing. I have no desire to read a book about Mister Miracle. I have no desire to read a book about the Visions. All I have to go by is his work on Batman, which I do want to read.

I follow and I understand, but still
both are not just his best works, they are some of the best comics ever made.
cant recommend them enough.

And I'll agree that he's a talented writer- the date night with Bruce/Selina and Clark/Lois is still one of my favorite issues- on a whole, the guy is extremely disappointing. I feel like he was told that he could write 100 issues, but he only had enough story for maybe 45. And so he just kept.

Stretching.

It.

Out.

I

Completely

Agree

Its definitely what happen with this.
the thing about both the Visions and Mr Miracle is that they are also short, both have 12 chps each and there is not a single chp or page or panel wasted.
here it is pretty obvious that Knightmares didnt needed to be as long as it was, the same for the War of Jokes and Riddles.

there is a lack of focus throughout the run on several arcs and it is probably because it got stretch too much.

I also don't like the resolution with Gotham Girl, or the fact that we got nothing about the rest of the Bat family who got mind-screwed by Psycho Pirate. I get that Gotham Girl was a victim to an extent (was she getting dosed with Venom, or was she willingly taking it to gain powers?), but there should be some blowback about what she did to Captain Atom at least. And I wanted at least one scene of Batman forcing Psycho Pirate to undo what he did to the rest of the family. But I don' think we even saw them at all.

thats another thing that simply feels up in the air

Its like King wanted to do something with Gotham Girl after I am Gotham but didnt had a concrete idea of how to get there, and then editorial ruin some of those plans
thats why the conclusion of IAG simply states that she ends up married with Duke and she ends up killing Batman.
I was expecting at the begining of City of Bane that she ends up killing Thomas and that was what it meant.
But that didnt happen either.
Duke is not even an important part of Kings run and I feel it is because of the editorial as well.

All in all, thank god this ****'s done. Bring on the next guy!

[SicariiDC]

after finishing this run I can pretty much confirm what i been thinking for the last few months
this run was 36 issues too long
It just should had ended with chp 49 and then let someone else handle the wedding aspect or just go down a different route

I do believe I enjoyed this entire run way more than most of the people here but that doesnt mean that I dont see the flaws so I want to touch on a couple of things of the run and not just this issue.

first of all the obvious one, Alfred didnt need to die because of this run, I am fully aware that this was DC editorial and that King didnt intended this to stick at all, it was just suppouse to be an slight of hand but this is what it is and what it is is a complete waste of a story and character.
I know Alfred will be back because there is no way that DC will get rid of him like this but it is still a shame.

second, Thomas Wayne is a terrible villain
I relly want to know wat was the main purpose of this, there is no way that this ended exactly how it was originally conceptualized. because I understand the motivation, Thomas sees Bruce being Batman as a failure so he wants him to stop being Batman However everything that he does to archieve this completetly sucks and or makes no sense to the purpose of it.
for example
what use is there to have Bane take over the city?
if the villains were getting mind wiped by Psychopirate why did he needed to still function as Batman with Gotham Girl?
If the point was to make Bruce no longer be Batman then...
idk...
maybe...
possibly...
USE PSYCHOPIRATE FOR THAT??!!?!???

finally and this is the biggest flaw of the entire premise of Thomas being the villain with this motivation
Changing Bruce wouldnt change Damian or Tim or anybody else
which is why the encounter between Damian and Thomas is so extremely dissappointing


Bane
I actually liked how King wrote Bane for the most part
He did felt like a huge mennace that could take over the city and I did loved the final confrontation between them with the "no masks, no venom, no shirts" thing, IT IS A GREAT MOMENT!
so his end is pretty terrible
he gets shot in the head
he survives
from what it looks like he lost what made him control Gotham and gets revenge on Thomas by breaking his back
so what is next for the character?
It really doesnt feel like a conclusion for the character or for what he tried to do.

now I know this is technically not the end of the run as King still has 12-15 more chapters with Batman/Catwoman but this doesnt feel like a good conclusion for King's Batman at all




yep, here is me of the annoyed ones
this is by far what I hated the most about the issue
It completely feels like editorial handling the rule of "Batman cant be married" and then King trying to go around that rule in such a way that it doesnt matter

So they are a couple now, and not every couple needs to be married, Its trying to take a more mature approach
here is the problem
Bruce proposed
and Catwoman said yes
and everything that was stoping it from happening is out of the way
by not getting married it is pretty much the narrative equivalent of showing a gun getting loaded on act one only to never be fired.
It is the absolute anticlimax and it is made worst the exchange between Batman and Gotham Girl just taunting "when is the wedding? am I invited? etc"

I do feel sorry for King because he is an extremely talented writer
for those here who keep complaining about this run week after week go read The Visions and Mr Miracle to understand why he deserved his Eisners's nominations and wins.
But here I could feel the shadow of the editorial interfering with some points and him not being able land others.

I agree with this a lot. I liked some of this run and was engaged the entire time (no pun intended) but this ending felt empty. And the poetry **** was cool but got tedious and less artsy each time used. I kinda liked the Alfred/Bruce issue but I so wanted Alfred to come back. I know he will...but still. I uniformally liked the art. Feel like this woulda been better if it shipped monthly and had more meat to the issues. I'm gonna binge re-read it at some point in the future and hope it flows better.

The dreams arc (which morrison did way better imo) and the dead and dying really ruined any momentum King had; which wasnt much past #50.

Idk im really nonplussed. And im not a hater...I like King, liked the first 1/3rd a lot, kept an open mind, remained patient, wanted to like the big Bane ending...but this was not good lol.

Lastly, im remembering my anticipation and excitement for this City of Bane arc since it was revealed he was manipulating all these events...but ****...this wasnt it. Was Bane even really manipulating events? Or Thomas? Or Scarface? Idk i gotta re-read the ****.

[AnakinFlair]

I dnt believe for a second that they will be married now
think about it
why reserve something so big to a mini series like Batman/Catwoman instead of Batman 100, or even here?



I follow and I understand, but still
both are not just his best works, they are some of the best comics ever made.
cant recommend them enough.



I

Completely

Agree

Its definitely what happen with this.
the thing about both the Visions and Mr Miracle is that they are also short, both have 12 chps each and there is not a single chp or page or panel wasted.
here it is pretty obvious that Knightmares didnt needed to be as long as it was, the same for the War of Jokes and Riddles.

there is a lack of focus throughout the run on several arcs and it is probably because it got stretch too much.



thats another thing that simply feels up in the air

Its like King wanted to do something with Gotham Girl after I am Gotham but didnt had a concrete idea of how to get there, and then editorial ruin some of those plans
thats why the conclusion of IAG simply states that she ends up married with Duke and she ends up killing Batman.
I was expecting at the begining of City of Bane that she ends up killing Thomas and that was what it meant.
But that didnt happen either.
Duke is not even an important part of Kings run and I feel it is because of the editorial as well.

I think you hit the nail on the head with editorial interference. This is me just spitballing, but I think that DC Editorial saw his Mister Miracle and Visions comics, and wanted to put him on their most important book. So they gave him Batman and promised him (maybe even contractually) 100 issues. But then King didn't have enough story for 100 issues, so he started dragging things out. And then he started doing things that maybe made editorial nervous, because it didn't adhere to the status quo, and so they started interfering. And then sales declined, and they panicked, so they decided to pull King off of the book- but he was promised 100 issues, so he gets a mini series instead.

That's also why I think the wedding will be in that series, because then DC can promote the hell out of it and try to push it as an event series.

[lilyrose]

That's also why I think the wedding will be in that series, because then DC can promote the hell out of it and try to push it as an event series.

I would LIKE that, but it's kind of hard for me to believe something really big like that would happen outside the main Batman book. It's hard enough thinking they'll let them have Helena in this book.

The only thing that makes me think it's possible is because of the 5G thing coming, with the new timelines and skipping to some years the future. Apparently they even hinted at Batman's 'lost daughter" or something in this future in the Doomsday book today. So...I think it's possible because they have this plan to skip to a future where the mantles of these characters are taken up by other people (with Bruce apparently running things behind the scenes or something), that they might allow him and Selina to have Helena in order to set that up and explain his retirement. And then by the time he comes back Helena could be old enough to be a girl Robin, and I could see that sticking.

[Jman27]

this is the first batman run where i read it from start to end, My takeaways from this is that Batman and Catwoman love each other. Bane isnt some scrub. Thomas Wayne return is interesting. Lots of filler issues and scenes that don't matter. And finally people hate Tom King

[Godlike13]

I didn’t hate this, but I didn’t love it either. The lack of any Ric tie up or anything was glaring. King still doesn’t want to go any near that I see lol.

[gregpersons]

The exterior of the gated mansion, where you see the stray cat and bat silhouette -- are we supposed to recognize that location? At first I assumed it was Wayne Manor, worse for wear after Bane inhabiting it, but I don't think it is. The orphanage where Selina grew up was burned to the ground, so that's not it. Just some house?

[Blue22]

An okay end to an otherwise disappointing run. One that I wish hadn't turned out this way because I was REALLY into it up until the halfway point.

Kinda wish they hadn't wimped out on the marriage but I honestly wasn't expecting it to happen at this point anyway. As a Bat/Cat fan, I'm glad they're at least together and "kinda" married. But now that that's all out of the way, can we bring Selina down off that godforsaken pedestal and stop acting like she's the only person in the world who matters to Bruce? Congrats Batman. You got the girl. Now go back to at least pretending you can be a functional human being when she's not in the same room with you. Maybe start being a father/mentor to the kids you've neglected for the past three years. You know. The ones who've apparently never brought you any real joy.