Batman #85 talk.

[Astralabius]

That confused me too.. But reading the rest.. The things about earth 1, earth 2.. etc.. I ignored it..

ANYWAY. I still remember ONE N52 GREEN LANTERN COMIC PREDICTIONS.. Jessica and Baz appeared but I remember that Hal wll marry Carol and he is still single.

Maybe we should not be worried about that.. In the case that DC decides really make this in 2027.. Maybe we should wait 7 YEARS.

I wouldn't think too much about it too. DC will change plans and directions several times before we get there.

I've never been a fan of people saying "Batman Beyond is the definitive future for Batman" or "Batman Annual #2 is the canon future". They're not. It doesn't matter what the writers or DC say, that's just not how comics work.

And to come back to King's run: Wasn't Gotham Girl supposed to marry Duke and wasn't Bruce supposed to die or something? It's been too long, but there was something and nothing came of it.

Always take statements about DC events that are set in the future with a grain of salt.

The only reason I posted the picture was because some people apparently only heard about it, but didn't read Doomsday Clock 12 and believed it confirmed Selina giving birth to Helena Wayne.

It states that in 2026 Bruce has a lost daughter and Clark is looking for her, because they need her help to save Bruce's son. It doesn't even confirm that it's about Damian, even though DC is usually talking about Damian when the phrase a sentence like that.

I think it's pretty obvious why a six year old Helena Wayne doesn't fit here. She would need to be aged up in some way. Other problems that arise from this have already been discussed by you guys.
It could be Helena Wayne from Earth 2 (fits better with the "lost" part and doesn't involve awkward age ups).
Even bringing Athanasia Al Ghul into main continuity is a possibility, nothing in this says it's about Selina's daughter.

There are a lot of ways this could play out. It doesn't confirm anything.

[adrikito]

You are right about Gotham Girl.. I remembered it when I saw her in this issue.

Fortunately it never happened because I never wanted Duke as Batman... Probably they changed this idea and decided make it(one black batman) with Batwing. I prefer him..

Probably they are talking about Earth 2 Helena. I am sure that in 2026 DC will have finished the batxcat because the people will be bored of this and will want him single again before that year..

[Restingvoice]

I wouldn't think too much about it too. DC will change plans and directions several times before we get there.

I've never been a fan of people saying "Batman Beyond is the definitive future for Batman" or "Batman Annual #2 is the canon future". They're not. It doesn't matter what the writers or DC say, that's just not how comics work.

And to come back to King's run: Wasn't Gotham Girl supposed to marry Duke and wasn't Bruce supposed to die or something? It's been to long, but there was something and nothing came of it.

Always take statements about DC events that are set in the future with a grain of salt.

Well, Batman Beyond was the definitive future... for New 52. Once New 52's gone, their future's gone too, or rather, now they're the only canon in Earth-52

and now with Earth-5G coming in, the future of Earth-Rebirth, whatever they're calling it, gonna be gone too, unless Earth-5G is Earth Rebirth

They gotta stop making Definitive Future stories though when they can't even handle the present

[K. Jones]

Wanted to jump back into the convo to say that the art was really lovely this issue. And has been, consistently.

What else? Well I'm trying to actually trace to the source the origination, the birthplace of the plot device of telling the last chapter Ex Post Facto. I'm sure the concept has existed for eons, since storytelling took place as actual storytelling and a person who went on an adventure was the person who came home to tell it. But what specific piece of Modern Fiction writing set the stage for so dang many writers to sabotage their own talent using the Ex Post Facto Trope for their final chapter. Ex Post Facto. After The Fact. I'm actually not sure if that Trope has ever been quantified. King's Batman does it. Morrison's Batman, Inc. does it. On top of that ... Morrison's Final Crisis does it big time. It, and I mean this to be a brutally honest critique (and I effing LOVE Morrison more than almost any other writer) ... is a hallmark of a writer that thinks they're cleverer than they are but honestly doesn't have a good handle on the basics of storytelling. The Doctor Who guys do this all the time.

Oh, Morrison's Action Comics run did it. Yeah, Morrison uses this chopped up ending trope ALL THE TIME. I'll call him on it. No more EX POST FACTO.

Anyway, other than that ... I dunno! More to come. It really wasn't the worst issue of the run.

[Astralabius]

Well, Batman Beyond was the definitive future... for New 52. Once New 52's gone, their future's gone too, or rather, now they're the only canon in Earth-52

and now with Earth-5G coming in, the future of Earth-Rebirth, whatever they're calling it, gonna be gone too, unless Earth-5G is Earth Rebirth

They gotta stop making Definitive Future stories though when they can't even handle the present

That's what I was talking about when I wrote "it doesn't matter what the writers or DC say."
It's only a matter of time before a new "definitive" future comes along and I would bet you money that one isn't going to stay "definitive" either.

[Tzigone]

I really hope that they talk about Earth 2 Helena. We don´t need more Batfamily.

I like the separate Earth 2, but have not heard anything about them going that direction again with any JSA or anything. And like I said, I like the separate Earth 2. I don't want Helena Wayne in our universe and would not refer to her as Bruce's daughter or Damian as her brother. Unless we're talking another brother and another Bruce. Maybe even another Superman. Heck, it could mean anything. Or be completely dropped. Actually, I guess it has to be another Superman (Jon), if it's 5G. Might explain why he only goes looking when Damian needs her.

Not having read it, I'm really interested in why a time 6 years out was chosen. It's not far enough to be distant future, but cannot fathom DC having any sort of planned-out story that would unfold in the real-world-2026 and not having it completely reworked before we reach that date.

That's what I was talking about when I wrote "it doesn't matter what the writers or DC say."
It's only a matter of time before a new "definitive" future comes along and I would bet you money that one isn't going to stay "definitive" either.

True.

[Astralabius]

Maybe even another Superman. Heck, it could mean anything. Or be completely dropped. Actually, I guess it has to be another Superman (Jon), if it's 5G. Might explain why he only goes looking when Damian needs her.

You're correct, it doesn't even confirm that it's Clark who's looking for her.

[kilderkin]

after finishing this run I can pretty much confirm what i been thinking for the last few months
this run was 36 issues too long
It just should had ended with chp 49 and then let someone else handle the wedding aspect or just go down a different route

I do believe I enjoyed this entire run way more than most of the people here but that doesnt mean that I dont see the flaws so I want to touch on a couple of things of the run and not just this issue.

first of all the obvious one, Alfred didnt need to die because of this run, I am fully aware that this was DC editorial and that King didnt intended this to stick at all, it was just suppouse to be an slight of hand but this is what it is and what it is is a complete waste of a story and character.
I know Alfred will be back because there is no way that DC will get rid of him like this but it is still a shame.

second, Thomas Wayne is a terrible villain
I relly want to know wat was the main purpose of this, there is no way that this ended exactly how it was originally conceptualized. because I understand the motivation, Thomas sees Bruce being Batman as a failure so he wants him to stop being Batman However everything that he does to archieve this completetly sucks and or makes no sense to the purpose of it.
for example
what use is there to have Bane take over the city?
if the villains were getting mind wiped by Psychopirate why did he needed to still function as Batman with Gotham Girl?
If the point was to make Bruce no longer be Batman then...
idk...
maybe...
possibly...
USE PSYCHOPIRATE FOR THAT??!!?!???

finally and this is the biggest flaw of the entire premise of Thomas being the villain with this motivation
Changing Bruce wouldnt change Damian or Tim or anybody else
which is why the encounter between Damian and Thomas is so extremely dissappointing


Bane
I actually liked how King wrote Bane for the most part
He did felt like a huge mennace that could take over the city and I did loved the final confrontation between them with the "no masks, no venom, no shirts" thing, IT IS A GREAT MOMENT!
so his end is pretty terrible
he gets shot in the head
he survives
from what it looks like he lost what made him control Gotham and gets revenge on Thomas by breaking his back
so what is next for the character?
It really doesnt feel like a conclusion for the character or for what he tried to do.

now I know this is technically not the end of the run as King still has 12-15 more chapters with Batman/Catwoman but this doesnt feel like a good conclusion for King's Batman at all




yep, here is me of the annoyed ones
this is by far what I hated the most about the issue
It completely feels like editorial handling the rule of "Batman cant be married" and then King trying to go around that rule in such a way that it doesnt matter

So they are a couple now, and not every couple needs to be married, Its trying to take a more mature approach
here is the problem
Bruce proposed
and Catwoman said yes
and everything that was stoping it from happening is out of the way
by not getting married it is pretty much the narrative equivalent of showing a gun getting loaded on act one only to never be fired.
It is the absolute anticlimax and it is made worst the exchange between Batman and Gotham Girl just taunting "when is the wedding? am I invited? etc"

I do feel sorry for King because he is an extremely talented writer
for those here who keep complaining about this run week after week go read The Visions and Mr Miracle to understand why he deserved his Eisners's nominations and wins.
But here I could feel the shadow of the editorial interfering with some points and him not being able land others.

In all honesty I thought Mr miracle started well, but went absolutely nowhere with a nothing ending

Imo it promised lots but delivered very little

I appreciate it was well received in some areas, including at award ceremonies

But really, for all its promise I thought it was a garbage ending and was about six issues of padding for all of the story it did present

Of course opinions vary

[Restingvoice]

I'm like the separate Earth 2, but have not heard anything about them going that direction again with any JSA or anything. And like I said, I like the separate Earth 2. I don't want Helena Wayne in our universe and would not refer to her as Bruce's daughter or Damian as her brother. Unless we're talking another another brother and another Bruce. Maybe even another Superman. Heck, it could mean anything. Or be completely dropped. Actually, I guess it has to be another Superman (Jon), if it's 5G. Might explain why he only goes looking when Damian needs her.

Not having read it, I'm really interested in why a time 6 years out was chosen. It's not far enough to be distant future, but cannot fathom DC having any sort of planned-out story that would unfold in the real-world-2026 and not having it completely reworked before we reach that date.

True.

The Superman one I'm pretty sure it's Clark because the page in question is in the middle of Dr. Manhattan explaining how DCU works now, and he's been talking about Superman Clark the whole time.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

I also just thought of this one, are Bane and Thomas in Arkham and the end? If so, how do they explain Thomas to regular people?

[Aahz]

Well, that was done. I guess King only has his usual decompressed and then this super compressed. Granted, his run got cut short, so he had to wrap things up pretty quick. Pretty anti-climatic if you ask me for what's the end of a 85 issue long story.

But By the time it was announced that the run was cut short he had iirc still more then 10 issues to wrap up the story, and he made a lot of them filler.

[kilderkin]

I'm just glad it's over

[mrswing]

Not the fucking Joker AGAIN.

[adrikito]

I also just thought of this one, are Bane and Thomas in Arkham and the end? If so, how do they explain Thomas to regular people?

Is ARKHAM. They can say that is one crazy man who believes that is Thomas Wayne. They can think that in something like Hush case.


So. Bane killed him? Thomas is one old man. Break him is not the same than break one young man..

[Ansa]

Is ARKHAM. They can say that is one crazy man who believes that is Thomas Wayne. They can think that in something like Hush case.


So. Bane killed him? Thomas is one old man. Break him is not the same than break one young man..

Other question: Didn't Selina break her neck when Bane slammed her into the wall? Wasn't Bruce shot in the gut two times? Didn't Tim get an arrow to his heart? Questions that will never be answered.