Star Wars: Rise of Skywalker- critical reaction

[Punisher007]

Not to mention characters and plotlines are just introduced out of nowhere, and then dropped just as quickly, New powers come out of nowhere, etc.

[AJBopp]

Yeah, you're seeing things that aren't there. The line in question ultimately works once Vader is revealed as Anakin, but that clearly wasn't the intent of the original scene. Anakin Skywalker is being portrayed as a wild adventurer.

You're blinding yourself to things that clearly are there, and it baffles me why anyone would choose to do so. If the intent of the scene was as you describe, then the dialog choice makes no sense. Better to give Obiwan's line to Owen:

"I just don't want him following old Obiwan off on some damn idealistic crusade and getting himself killed."

As is, he's clearly worried about more than just Luke's safety. It's foreshadowing, and clearly intentional.

[Sacred Knight]

Zero's right. He's not being blind to anything, and the dialogue choice makes sense just fine as is within the context that it was at the time of filming ANH. He's not clearly being worried about more than just his safety, as we're not meant to be entirely sure what he's exactly worried about yet. That's how its filmed, that's how its played by Owen and Beru's actors. The details of that are intentionally shrouded. There's no logic to the idea that Owen's quote absolutely needed to include something about Anakin dying for it not to be indicating, at the time, just that. We just weren't to know it yet from that source so it had to be veiled. That was for Obi-Wan to explain to Luke later. That was to be part one of the narrative payoff you speak. Luke finds out the big bad of the film killed his dad. Next step of narrative payoff would be the inevitable building confrontation between these two individuals. This is a situation of it retroactively foreshadowing something different in retrospect.

In the original context, the foreshadowing works fine. Owen is worried that Luke has so much of his father him because in his father's case that wanderlust led to him joining a group in which one of his friends went rogue and killed him. And the hermit old Ben was that particular guy's teacher to boot, so he's just as culpable. Just turns out the new information crafted later made this scene still work, but actually work even better. Lucas had a lot of ideas, I'm not making the claim that in regards to the OT, Lucas made up everything as he went along in a haphazard, generally unworkable manner and just got ridiculously lucky. That's just as much revisionist history. He did have a playbook, and the playbook evolved in ways that mostly worked. This is just one example of an evolution working exceedingly well with what the first film told us.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

There's zero foreshadowing of Vader being Luke's father because the concept simply didn't exist at the time.

Nobody is saying that. Just that subconsciously Lucas was preparing the hints all along.

The subconscious exists for a fact and there are numerous instances where artists talk about the fact that they ended up foreshadowing something they had no idea they were doing without realizing it. Tolkien said "the tale grew in the telling", and numerous others say, "the characters took a life of their own" and words to that effect.

In the case of cinema, in most instances, you can't really talk that way because few creators have control over writing, production, direction and editing in terms of approving, checking, accepting, vetoing, and then working the final cut of the project. George Lucasm however did have that level of control over all six films. Not a single scene, dialogue, sound effect, or visual effect made it on to the screen without him approving it.

[AJBopp]

The OT had the benefit of being structured in a way where the changes mostly felt like they fit, even if they weren't planned that way all along, when it was all said and done.

The ST, they felt a lot less natural. Also as I've said many times, just because Lucas got away with making it up as he went decades ago, doesn't meant that it was a good idea for LF to try and do that now. And for me, a lot of the problems can be traced to a lack of coherent vision or narrative.

So....The first six episodes had no plan or over-arching story, Lucas just got away with it as he went? The last three episodes had no plan or over-arching strategy, but they didn't get away with it? Makes little sense.

Things don't just fall into place as they did in I-VI. Leia sends the Death Star plans to Ben Kenobi, because he's a hero of the Old Republic. He just happens to be living near a powerful Force-sensitive young man who is not living with his parents, and doesn't know who they even are. And the suggestion is that this was all a lucky narrative chance that just "worked out right in the end?" ...

I can just hear the conversation in the script writing sessions. "Hey, I know! Remember how Owen said he was afraid Luke would be like his father, and Ben was clearly reluctant to talk about Luke's father with him? What if we have Vader be Luke's father! And Leia is...oh I dunno, we'll work that out in the third movie..." And by the time the third script writing sessions come up we have "Hey I know...remember how Yoda said there was another, and Luke was able to reach out to Leia using the Force? What if - now stay with me here - what if Leia is actually Luke's sister?!"

Please.

Tarkin was introduced because Lucas wasnn't comfortable introducing the Emperor in the time constraints of the single movie, and so Tarkin was invented as a stand in. Lucas didn't yet have a clear vision for who the Emperor would be or how he would be used. That's an example of a legitimate change he made along the way. Like the introduction of Lando to potentially take Han's place if necessary. But from the get-go the series was always "The Skywalker Saga," with Luke, Leia and Vader being the same family.

[ZeroBG82]

So....The first six episodes had no plan or over-arching story, Lucas just got away with it as he went? The last three episodes had no plan or over-arching strategy, but they didn't get away with it? Makes little sense.

Things don't just fall into place as they did in I-VI. Leia sends the Death Star plans to Ben Kenobi, because he's a hero of the Old Republic. He just happens to be living near a powerful Force-sensitive young man who is not living with his parents, and doesn't know who they even are. And the suggestion is that this was all a lucky narrative chance that just "worked out right in the end?" ...

I can just hear the conversation in the script writing sessions. "Hey, I know! Remember how Owen said he was afraid Luke would be like his father, and Ben was clearly reluctant to talk about Luke's father with him? What if we have Vader be Luke's father! And Leia is...oh I dunno, we'll work that out in the third movie..." And by the time the third script writing sessions come up we have "Hey I know...remember how Yoda said there was another, and Luke was able to reach out to Leia using the Force? What if - now stay with me here - what if Leia is actually Luke's sister?!"

Please.

Tarkin was introduced because Lucas wasnn't comfortable introducing the Emperor in the time constraints of the single movie, and so Tarkin was invented as a stand in. Lucas didn't yet have a clear vision for who the Emperor would be or how he would be used. That's an example of a legitimate change he made along the way. Like the introduction of Lando to potentially take Han's place if necessary. But from the get-go the series was always "The Skywalker Saga," with Luke, Leia and Vader being the same family.

Now you're just mythologizing. There is documented evidence that the decision to make Vader into Anakin Skywalker came while writing Empire. From the director of said film. Why is he lying, in your view? The same is true of the Leia reveal, where multiple sources inside the production have talked about how the sister character mentioned by Yoda was intended to be an entirely new character introduced after the fact. Lucas was effectively riffing on the pulp serials, where introducing new characters out of nowhere as the story progresses is entirely normal.

You want to make Lucas into something he isn't. Some mythic visionary. He's a filmmaker who told some good stories. And yes, he worked out much of it as he went along. Which is both ok, and understandable. He clearly solidified his vision as he went along, which is also normal and fine. He may have had earlier ideas that he found ways to fold back into the story as he progressed. Such is the creative process for many storytellers.

But trying to force this retrospective view that completely ignores all context and experience at the time just doesn't make any sense.

[AJBopp]

Now you're just mythologizing. There is documented evidence that the decision to make Vader into Anakin Skywalker came while writing Empire. From the director of said film. Why is he lying, in your view? The same is true of the Leia reveal, where multiple sources inside the production have talked about how the sister character mentioned by Yoda was intended to be an entirely new character introduced after the fact. Lucas was effectively riffing on the pulp serials, where introducing new characters out of nowhere as the story progresses is entirely normal.

You want to make Lucas into something he isn't. Some mythic visionary. He's a filmmaker who told some good stories. And yes, he worked out much of it as he went along. Which is both ok, and understandable. He clearly solidified his vision as he went along, which is also normal and fine. He may have had earlier ideas that he found ways to fold back into the story as he progressed. Such is the creative process for many storytellers.

But trying to force this retrospective view that completely ignores all context and experience at the time just doesn't make any sense.

I'll meet you this far. I can fully imagine that Lucas kept his options open was was prepared to deviate from his original storyline depending on actors' availability and audience reactions. But to suppose that what ended up on screen was not largely his original vision, at least in terms of family relationships, is directly contradicted by Lucas' first draft of the Star Wars movie.

[Beaddle]

Not to mention characters and plotlines are just introduced out of nowhere, and then dropped just as quickly, New powers come out of nowhere, etc.

It feels more of a set up to other films or spin off movies. Wonder if Lando does have a daughter. this is star wars, a space opera.

what was finn going to tell Rey? perhaps he was on love with her?

Watching ROS, made me go back to watch some scenes from Last Jeidi. hate or love the movie, Last Jedi felt grand, ROS felt more like Spy game.

[ZeroBG82]

what was finn going to tell Rey? perhaps he was on love with her?

That he is Force sensitive. And presumably that he wants her to train him as a Jedi. It's one of the better built, if perhaps too subtle subplots in the film, actually.

[Beaddle]

Now you're just mythologizing. There is documented evidence that the decision to make Vader into Anakin Skywalker came while writing Empire. From the director of said film. Why is he lying, in your view? The same is true of the Leia reveal, where multiple sources inside the production have talked about how the sister character mentioned by Yoda was intended to be an entirely new character introduced after the fact. Lucas was effectively riffing on the pulp serials, where introducing new characters out of nowhere as the story progresses is entirely normal.

You want to make Lucas into something he isn't. Some mythic visionary. He's a filmmaker who told some good stories. And yes, he worked out much of it as he went along. Which is both ok, and understandable. He clearly solidified his vision as he went along, which is also normal and fine. He may have had earlier ideas that he found ways to fold back into the story as he progressed. Such is the creative process for many storytellers.

But trying to force this retrospective view that completely ignores all context and experience at the time just doesn't make any sense.

I think this answers the questions with some solid evidence. the truth is writers are flexible. a writer can write 7 books and start changing the story during the final editing. Lucas was probably no different. he did some twerking. according to lucas he said he wrote the 6 films even before he went into episode 4 but we can see some of the little twerks by the time the screenplay for episode 3 went into production. Leia saying Padme died when she was young, but episode 3 reveals Padme dies in child birth.

it was always Lucas's intention to have padme not be there to raise her kids but the moment she dies, that was something he only decided on during episode 3.

[thwhtGuardian]

I'll meet you this far. I can fully imagine that Lucas kept his options open was was prepared to deviate from his original storyline depending on actors' availability and audience reactions. But to suppose that what ended up on screen was not largely his original vision, at least in terms of family relationships, is directly contradicted by Lucas' first draft of the Star Wars movie.

Except they're not contradicted by Lucas' first draft...that was what was altered to look more like what we saw on screen and that's been understood for a while. I mean, there was a scene in an early draft of Empire where Luke met the Force Ghost of Anakin...who was killed by Vader, just like Obi-Wan said. The whole, from a certain point of view bit was to cover for the original version. And again, we have direct evidence that from others involved that Leia wasn't Luke's sister and was never intended to be.

[sunofdarkchild]

While working on Empire Strikes Back Lucas hit upon a brilliant idea which would be a shocking twist, introduce an element of grey into what had been a rather black and white universe, and add emotional weight to the main character's arc and struggle against the darkness within. Once he had it he fell in love with the idea.

Also, the emperor was not originally supposed to be a force user. He was originally meant to be a puppet of others who had little idea what was going on in the wider galaxy or how much people were suffering under the empire's rule. The idea of making him the true big bad came with the first draft of Empire, and it was only later, when Vader was changed to be Luke's father that the decision to make the emperor a force user was made.

[Punisher007]

So....The first six episodes had no plan or over-arching story, Lucas just got away with it as he went? The last three episodes had no plan or over-arching strategy, but they didn't get away with it? Makes little sense.

Things don't just fall into place as they did in I-VI. Leia sends the Death Star plans to Ben Kenobi, because he's a hero of the Old Republic. He just happens to be living near a powerful Force-sensitive young man who is not living with his parents, and doesn't know who they even are. And the suggestion is that this was all a lucky narrative chance that just "worked out right in the end?" ...

I can just hear the conversation in the script writing sessions. "Hey, I know! Remember how Owen said he was afraid Luke would be like his father, and Ben was clearly reluctant to talk about Luke's father with him? What if we have Vader be Luke's father! And Leia is...oh I dunno, we'll work that out in the third movie..." And by the time the third script writing sessions come up we have "Hey I know...remember how Yoda said there was another, and Luke was able to reach out to Leia using the Force? What if - now stay with me here - what if Leia is actually Luke's sister?!"

Please.

Tarkin was introduced because Lucas wasnn't comfortable introducing the Emperor in the time constraints of the single movie, and so Tarkin was invented as a stand in. Lucas didn't yet have a clear vision for who the Emperor would be or how he would be used. That's an example of a legitimate change he made along the way. Like the introduction of Lando to potentially take Han's place if necessary. But from the get-go the series was always "The Skywalker Saga," with Luke, Leia and Vader being the same family.

Watching the OT and PT, they just hold together and feel more coherent than the ST does. And if anything, the ST should have learned from the past and had more og an overarching vision from the beginning.

It's that simple for me.

[Buried Alien]

It's that simple for me.

I like all eleven movies. It's that simple for me.

I'd probably like the various TV shows too, if I ever had enough time to watch them all.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

It's that simple for me.

I like all eleven movies. It's that simple for me.

I'd probably like the various TV shows too, if I ever had enough time to watch them all.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)