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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Jokerz79's Avatar
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    Yeah Kal's got Earths 2, 1985, and 52 where be gets to be 1st and as long as he's the 1st of the modern age of heroism on the main DC Earth I'm happy because I'm thrilled to have the JSA back on the main DC Earth other heroes have legacies too and deserve as much respect as Superman's.

  2. #62
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    To anyone who's upset about the JSA being around before Superman, people complained when the JSA was removed from the main Earth during the New52, because they felt that removed the DCU's superhero legacy that was prominent in the Post Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint timeline.
    DC existed for 50 or so years before we entered the post-Crisis/pre-Flashpoint era. We shouldn't always have to be beholden to it, and it's created plenty of headaches on its own.
    The JSA existed on their own Earth pre-COIE and did just fine there. A lot of their characters (like Power Girl, the Huntress, the Fury, the separate Hawks ) made more sense as well. The problem with the New 52 is that it removed them to an Earth-2 again but none of them resembled their classic selves. Had it resembled a pre-COIE Earth-2 with some of the better post-COIE additions (like Michael Holt and Stargirl) we'd have a different scenario. Because the JSA is largely a niche property with a devoted fanbase that I think would follow them as long as they resembled themselves and were in good stories.

    Outside of their little corner, their legacy doesn't impact much of anything in the wider DCU. It's basically the Golden Age heroes and their respective legacies interacting with each other, but it doesn't bleed into any of the major properties enough to be noticeable besides the Flash. And even then, Multiverse hopping was invented with them, it's not like Jay would be absent entirely. And nothing JSA related really has a part to play in the Super mythos, it wouldn't notice their absence. Neither would Batman, WW, GL, Aquaman, the Titans...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    Except the comics pretending the JSA matters fractionally as much as Superman, much less substantially *more*, isn't just dumb fake nonsense that's the precise opposite of the real-world publishing history it's riffing on but diminishes literally every character involved.
    Yes, it always seems so transparent and fake. Like it's a straight up lie. When the actual real comics had Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman be their peers, it is super weird to read a comic and have them be presented as the Trinity's (and others') inspiration.

    I don't even need him to be the center of the Metaverse or even be present on Earth-4 (the Pax Americana), Earth-5/S (where the Marvel family should be), Earth-6 (classically the home of the Forerunners) or Earth-10 (Freedom Fighters). But the main two Earths? He should be first there because that's how it always ways. Maybe I'm biased because I don't care about the JSA that much though.

  3. #63
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dispenser Of Truth View Post
    oh my god

    oh my god it's so dumb

    Literally no joke about Doomsday Clock over the last 3 years about it ending with Superman asking Doctor Manhattan "but what about...hope?" and Manhattan flipping out because he'd never considered this remotely anticipated how genuinely twee and dumb it was gonna get. And bringing him back as public Superboy and bringing back the Kents and making him like the 186th superhero or whatever again because Geoff hates me personally I guess.......
    You know I'm right there with you.

    But come on man, the writing was on the wall in issue 1. We've known this was where the story was going for, literally, years. As soon as we got that flashback/nightmare/whatever it was of the Kents dying......this was a foregone conclusion. It's Johns. This is the Superman he writes, and if Superman isn't this, Johns changes it. Johns seemingly exists just to make sure that Superman remain as boring, bland, and vanilla as he can possibly get. It's almost super human, Johns' ability to f**k this character up, and he has always taken the wrong lessons to heart when it comes to Clark. Gods, he isn't even writing Superman's books and he's still able to do this kind of damage. It's actually sort of impressive....like a nuclear bomb; horrible, life ending, a waste of human effort and potential, but still impressive in its raw destructive power.

    If the gods are kind, Bendis will keep them on the sidelines and as out of sight as possible. But we should've braced for this bullsh*t years ago.
    Last edited by Ascended; 12-27-2019 at 07:17 PM.
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  4. #64
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    its been this way for a while, now. Jsa is the inspiration in young justice as the first team and in Smallville.

    Now, this is getting ridiculous. Superman's story is the first story in the Multiverse. Earth - 2 is the backup of the original earth and continuation. So that mean it is the original earth. In it superman, wonder woman and batman are given their due. Superman is the first there.So, what is the fuss all about? It's better than the stupid policy of justice league being the be all and end all of DC. I have to hate that. DC isn't just justice league or silverage.Giving titans and jsa an equivalent place is not a sin. a main earth should be a place where all earths exist side by side.superman can either be the first hero or the contemporary modern hero. He cannot be both.You guys need to seriously choose. Heck! Even that ain't needed anymore. Both exist. One more thing, the day dc desides to make superman just the first hero. They will throw him back to the forties and will never be a modern hero, in the current period.


    This is the best solution. No New52 solution sucked and it wasn't just because they weren't classic either. They focused on an earth exist with just jsa as premier team then had them be successors of the so called trinity , a name that didn't exist till modern times. there were two earths they published about earth-2 and new52. And on both earths with batman, superman and wonder woman were given foremost importance. I mean, there was the fuss about trinity deaths, even on Earth-2 . It was excessive.And this much importance to these characters is unwarranted. Its not like dc gives importance to other characters that debuted with superman, like zatara and existed before him. That's a bigger unfair treatment . A bigger lie.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 12-27-2019 at 08:25 PM.

  5. #65
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You know I'm right there with you.

    But come on man, the writing was on the wall in issue 1. We've known this was where the story was going for, literally, years. As soon as we got that flashback/nightmare/whatever it was of the Kents dying......this was a foregone conclusion. It's Johns. This is the Superman he writes, and if Superman isn't this, Johns changes it. Johns seemingly exists just to make sure that Superman remain as boring, bland, and vanilla as he can possibly get. It's almost super human, Johns' ability to f**k this character up, and he has always taken the wrong lessons to heart when it comes to Clark. Gods, he isn't even writing Superman's books and he's still able to do this kind of damage. It's actually sort of impressive....like a nuclear bomb; horrible, life ending, a waste of human effort and potential, but still impressive in its raw destructive power.

    If the gods are kind, Bendis will keep them on the sidelines and as out of sight as possible. But we should've braced for this bullsh*t years ago.
    The crazy part is that we all came up with a better idea for their return, with Jor-El "giving them back" to Clark when he has to leave to send himself back to Krypton's destruction.

    It was perfect.

    It was beautiful.



    Which is why it'd never see print. lol
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  6. #66
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    The crazy part is that we all came up with a better idea for their return, with Jor-El "giving them back" to Clark when he has to leave to send himself back to Krypton's destruction.

    It was perfect.

    It was beautiful.

    Which is why it'd never see print. lol
    Best idea for their return is to not do it at all. But yeah if it had to happen having Jor be the guy to do it is far more poetic and beautiful and narratively potent than what we actually got.

    But this is what Johns does. He's written a couple good Superman stories, but 95% of the time it's just....unimaginative, low quality, boring. The guy is great with a lot of characters but the Trinity.....somehow he misses the mark with them. Perhaps they're too archetypal for him, I dunno. And he's the absolute worst with Superman.

    This is also just what DC does. We'll get a brief time, maybe a couple years, of good stories and world building and things will be looking up. And just as everyone is getting comfortable DC pulls the rug out from under us and screws up everything with retcons or crap quality or both.

    >shrug< just the way it is.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You know I'm right there with you.

    But come on man, the writing was on the wall in issue 1. We've known this was where the story was going for, literally, years. As soon as we got that flashback/nightmare/whatever it was of the Kents dying......this was a foregone conclusion. It's Johns. This is the Superman he writes, and if Superman isn't this, Johns changes it. Johns seemingly exists just to make sure that Superman remain as boring, bland, and vanilla as he can possibly get. It's almost super human, Johns' ability to f**k this character up, and he has always taken the wrong lessons to heart when it comes to Clark. Gods, he isn't even writing Superman's books and he's still able to do this kind of damage. It's actually sort of impressive....like a nuclear bomb; horrible, life ending, a waste of human effort and potential, but still impressive in its raw destructive power.

    If the gods are kind, Bendis will keep them on the sidelines and as out of sight as possible. But we should've braced for this bullsh*t years ago.
    Yeah, it's kind of a shame that he's always paired up with such a fantastic artist as Gary Frank. Doesn't quite ruin the enjoyment I have for Frank's work, but it certainly doesn't help, either.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  8. #68
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    DC existed for 50 or so years before we entered the post-Crisis/pre-Flashpoint era. We shouldn't always have to be beholden to it, and it's created plenty of headaches on its own.
    The JSA existed on their own Earth pre-COIE and did just fine there. A lot of their characters (like Power Girl, the Huntress, the Fury, the separate Hawks ) made more sense as well. The problem with the New 52 is that it removed them to an Earth-2 again but none of them resembled their classic selves. Had it resembled a pre-COIE Earth-2 with some of the better post-COIE additions (like Michael Holt and Stargirl) we'd have a different scenario. Because the JSA is largely a niche property with a devoted fanbase that I think would follow them as long as they resembled themselves and were in good stories.

    Outside of their little corner, their legacy doesn't impact much of anything in the wider DCU. It's basically the Golden Age heroes and their respective legacies interacting with each other, but it doesn't bleed into any of the major properties enough to be noticeable besides the Flash. And even then, Multiverse hopping was invented with them, it's not like Jay would be absent entirely. And nothing JSA related really has a part to play in the Super mythos, it wouldn't notice their absence. Neither would Batman, WW, GL, Aquaman, the Titans...



    Yes, it always seems so transparent and fake. Like it's a straight up lie. When the actual real comics had Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman be their peers, it is super weird to read a comic and have them be presented as the Trinity's (and others') inspiration.

    I don't even need him to be the center of the Metaverse or even be present on Earth-4 (the Pax Americana), Earth-5/S (where the Marvel family should be), Earth-6 (classically the home of the Forerunners) or Earth-10 (Freedom Fighters). But the main two Earths? He should be first there because that's how it always ways. Maybe I'm biased because I don't care about the JSA that much though.
    Didn't stop fans from complaining about that because that was what they grew up on for since 1985 and several media based on DC properties since then used the JSA as the old guard of several DC universes where the JLA exist therefore giving that concept wide exposure. So whether you like it or not many seem to be familiar with their Post Crisis concept than their original Pre Crisis Earth 2 era.

  9. #69
    Spectacular Member oldschoolfan's Avatar
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    So glad it's over.

    This was a painful waste of Gary Frank's talents. John's had moments of clarity here, but it really seemed like he was trying to say, "See, look, I can write like Alan Moore" when he should have just written a story in his style. The guy that wrote the Brainiac story or the Zod story circa 2010, I would have preferred that style.

    I don't know how much DC editorial is going to pay attention to this mini-series. I hope not very much, I think every body started out thinking that this was going to be watershed in DC continuity, but to be honest, Scott Snyder's done more to take care of that than anyone else.
    The best writers at DC, the writers whose books I have gravitated to? Snyder, Tomasi, Tynion, Bendis, Wilson and Jones. There are others, but really I have to say that DC is killing it in the monthly book department. They are a level better than most of the competition.
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  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Didn't stop fans from complaining about that because that was what they grew up on for since 1985 and several media based on DC properties since then used the JSA as the old guard of several DC universes where the JLA exist therefore giving that concept wide exposure. So whether you like it or not many seem to be familiar with their Post Crisis concept than their original Pre Crisis Earth 2 era.
    Fans mainly complained that they were made younger, altered in some way and their legacy versions were erased. Like Alan Scott being made younger and gay while Todd was erased. We dont know for sure if the Pre-Crisis setup that had all the classic characters as themselves would be rejected as long as it was good.

    Pre Crisis just worked better. Less continuity headaches and weird sliding timescale issues. How do these heroes active in WW2 have kids who are mostly millennials?

  11. #71
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Best idea for their return is to not do it at all. But yeah if it had to happen having Jor be the guy to do it is far more poetic and beautiful and narratively potent than what we actually got.

    But this is what Johns does. He's written a couple good Superman stories, but 95% of the time it's just....unimaginative, low quality, boring. The guy is great with a lot of characters but the Trinity.....somehow he misses the mark with them. Perhaps they're too archetypal for him, I dunno. And he's the absolute worst with Superman.

    This is also just what DC does. We'll get a brief time, maybe a couple years, of good stories and world building and things will be looking up. And just as everyone is getting comfortable DC pulls the rug out from under us and screws up everything with retcons or crap quality or both.

    >shrug< just the way it is.
    True. It's like we need to organize something to tell them that so it actually sinks in. Like get 10,000 people in Superman costumes to show up at their convention booth or something.

    Though that would, overall, look different to different people. I could have done with at least two more years of Rebirth/Reborn growth before going onto the next shake-up. And I still agree with a few on here that someone like Jurgens should be overseeing things as editor or something. And covers. He needs to do those, too. lol
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  12. #72
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I think I'd be comfortable with Jurgens as editor.

    Depends though, on how much he respects the history. I mean, it's Jurgens and his name is (rightfully) legendary around here and the triangle era is probably one of the strongest multi-year runs Superman has ever had. But there's a lot of history before 1985 and it really, actively pisses me off when DC pretends none of that matters. I don't know what Jurgens' opinion of pre-Crisis is but if he understands why it matters then absolutely put that man in the editor's chair. I'd be more comfortable with him calling the shots than a lot of people, assuming he "gets" pre-Crisis as well as post- and the more modern attempts to fuse both approaches.

    And he can do covers anytime.

    I don't need him writing though. The 90's were a long time ago and his style doesn't seem to have changed at all.
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  13. #73
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I don’t particularly care if Superman was the first superhero for a very simple reason: When has that really ever actually mattered in continuity? Has that status ever actually benefitted him in some way? It’s not like Batman has suffered at all from not being the second superhero in canon. It just seems like people want it more because of how in reality he paved the way for the rest, but I can’t really remember many times in canon where him being the first has been a big deal. There have been good stories in regards to that status of course, but mostly out of continuity stuff like Adventures of Superman or Yang’s Superman Smashes the Klan.

    But man the Kents’ being back... look most people seem to want them back (mostly for nostalgia purposes I’d argue since nobody seems to have any clue for what should be done with them other than some vague “Clark can go to them for advice” handwave we really should have moved on past at this point) but if anyone can make me actually appreciate the Kents it’s Bendis. Bendis made me care about Aunt May in USM when I had long since lost ANY desire to see her continue after Marvel brought her back the first time during the Clone Saga. I think the Kents are better off dead. I think Clark running back to the Kents for advice after getting married to Lois is cringeworthy at best and downright crap writing at worst that relies on a lot of assumptions about rural folk possessing some innate superior wisdom to city folk that just flat out doesn’t work for me these days for a variety of reasons. Lois and Jimmy are his advisors or at least should be. Maybe Perry as well. But we’ll see how Bendis deals with them.

  14. #74
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I don’t particularly care if Superman was the first superhero for a very simple reason: When has that really ever actually mattered in continuity? Has that status ever actually benefitted him in some way? It’s not like Batman has suffered at all from not being the second superhero in canon. It just seems like people want it more because of how in reality he paved the way for the rest, but I can’t really remember many times in canon where him being the first has been a big deal. There have been good stories in regards to that status of course, but mostly out of continuity stuff like Adventures of Superman or Yang’s Superman Smashes the Klan.

    But man the Kents’ being back... look most people seem to want them back (mostly for nostalgia purposes I’d argue since nobody seems to have any clue for what should be done with them other than some vague “Clark can go to them for advice” handwave we really should have moved on past at this point) but if anyone can make me actually appreciate the Kents it’s Bendis. Bendis made me care about Aunt May in USM when I had long since lost ANY desire to see her continue after Marvel brought her back the first time during the Clone Saga. I think the Kents are better off dead. I think Clark running back to the Kents for advice after getting married to Lois is cringeworthy at best and downright crap writing at worst that relies on a lot of assumptions about rural folk possessing some innate superior wisdom to city folk that just flat out doesn’t work for me these days for a variety of reasons. Lois and Jimmy are his advisors or at least should be. Maybe Perry as well. But we’ll see how Bendis deals with them.
    I remember one issue of Jack Kirby's run on Jimmy Olsen where it confirmed that the original Guardian came before Superman
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  15. #75
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think I'd be comfortable with Jurgens as editor.

    Depends though, on how much he respects the history. I mean, it's Jurgens and his name is (rightfully) legendary around here and the triangle era is probably one of the strongest multi-year runs Superman has ever had. But there's a lot of history before 1985 and it really, actively pisses me off when DC pretends none of that matters. I don't know what Jurgens' opinion of pre-Crisis is but if he understands why it matters then absolutely put that man in the editor's chair. I'd be more comfortable with him calling the shots than a lot of people, assuming he "gets" pre-Crisis as well as post- and the more modern attempts to fuse both approaches.

    And he can do covers anytime.

    I don't need him writing though. The 90's were a long time ago and his style doesn't seem to have changed at all.
    On respecting the history, I think he's good with whatever, really (New52 notwithstanding, but then they didn't give the writers then much to go on for characterization). He seems to be able to play in almost whatever sandbox he's told to (think John's, but imo more versatile and less "murder-y"), so I think he'd be fine. In the merged "Reborn" timeline, Steve Lombard was there in the early days, and that wasn't the case in early Post-Crisis, so I think they were going off of a "Bronze-to-Modern" idea, and perhaps giving Earth-2 Superman the Gold/Silver timelines would be a good way to keep that going. With one caveat, that gives me an idea:

    Talking about the "Metaverse"... when Superman is around something that's giving Metaverse energies, he can remember every "main" version of himself: "To some degree, I've been all of these people at various points in my.. lives. I am them, and they are me." And Superman being the center means his continuity being more changed than others on reboots make even more sense: those that would change the Metaverse attempt to change the center the most, because energy pushes outward from the center.

    As for writing... I think he needs a team. His Rebirth/Reborn run was a bit hampered first by continuity fixes (that he wasn't even allowed to fix all of) and then by a holding pattern. He kinda had to be the workhorse in that situation, so I give him more credit than most for that. But even having said that, I think he does best via committee - which would explain why his Triangle Era work doesn't show quite the shortcomings (imo, of course) that his newer stuff does (again, even given what I said before). But having him do overall outlines/directions with others doing the full script writing would be the best of all worlds, imo.
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