Doomsday Clock Ending (SPOILER!!!)

[superduperman]

How hard is it to draw the E-2 Superman's symbol? It's like no modern artists have gotten it right.

[HsssH]

I see what Johns did as him doing what we've asked DC to do for years now: Give every previous continuity their own universe. Now the question remains: Will they stick with this? DC has this bad habit of everyone who comes after ignoring what was done before or trying to undo it. I'm so grateful for Earth 1985 but I can't pretend anything will come of it or that some editor five years from now won't decide to just undo it because he thinks it's stupid or has a "better" idea in mind. Everyone wants the version they grew up with. Ten years from now the DCAU might be the "official" DCU just because whoever is in charge grew up with that version. And everything else will be jettisoned because they think it's stupid. It's DC's instability that worries me.

I'm not sure if this "solution" really works for anyone? Take new-52 Superman, does it matter that he exists in his own universe if we won't get any series featuring him? Practically it is same as if he didn't exist. Best case scenario he could get a cameo in some story... which he already did in Sideways annual so Doomsday Clock in practical sense changed nothing.

[superduperman]

I'm not sure if this "solution" really works for anyone? Take new-52 Superman, does it matter that he exists in his own universe if we won't get any series featuring him? Practically it is same as if he didn't exist. Best case scenario he could get a cameo in some story... which he already did in Sideways annual so Doomsday Clock in practical sense changed nothing.

I have to hope they have some plans down the line for this. Or at least are setting up something that lets creators use these versions. For instance, we know there's another Crisis event coming next year. Maybe it will involve them somehow.

[Patrick Gerard]

How hard is it to draw the E-2 Superman's symbol? It's like no modern artists have gotten it right.

I mean, it’s essentially the Snyderverse emblem.

I think they CAN draw it but choose not to. In fairness, Earth-2 Superman only wore that symbol in a handful of books, mostly in the late 70s and early 80s. He had a completely different symbol in the Mr. and Mrs. Superman strips.

In Infinite Crisis, I think the Joe Kelly written tie-in tried to run with the idea that Kal-L had worn ALL the various evolving symbols from the 40s and wore the modern emblem and wore the 80s emblem in the 80s.

Another possibility is that inkers keep “fixing” it. The Superman logo is frequently drawn off-model by pencillers and I’ve gathered it can be a fight to let it be off-model, such as McGuinness’ being stretched out or Jim Lee fighting to sharpen the lower serif. It may well be that inkers are used to redrawing it.

[Patrick Gerard]

I'm not sure if this "solution" really works for anyone? Take new-52 Superman, does it matter that he exists in his own universe if we won't get any series featuring him? Practically it is same as if he didn't exist. Best case scenario he could get a cameo in some story... which he already did in Sideways annual so Doomsday Clock in practical sense changed nothing.

I see the POTENTIAL to treat it like an intercompany crossover, like Convergence only done better. Maybe a bit like Morrison’s Earth-2 meets JLA/Avengers.

Intercompany crossovers are getting harder with the posturing between media companies. But you can do DC vs. DC for free and it’s mainly a matter of lining up the right talent.

[JAK]

Isn't it kind of petty if there are countlessly many Earths in the DCU and we can't even let one we don't like exist in the background?

Agreed. I have no real love for the New52, but I also have absolutely no problem that it still exists "out there somewhere". I would have loved that idea for "my" Superman back in 2011.

I'm not sure if this "solution" really works for anyone? Take new-52 Superman, does it matter that he exists in his own universe if we won't get any series featuring him? Practically it is same as if he didn't exist. Best case scenario he could get a cameo in some story... which he already did in Sideways annual so Doomsday Clock in practical sense changed nothing.

It's not the same as if he didn't exist - he exists for possible use, just like every other version. See above: I would have certainly felt better about the shift if the PR had been different and this concept had been in place for the Pre-Flashpoint Superman.

What's I like here is that we're not even getting the Pre-Flashpoint Superman - it's more Triangle Era (since by Flashpoint, Jonathan was dead already). And I like the Triangle Era better than Pre-Flashpoint, anyway.


My one problem with it is this: regardless of how this is going to be handled, this (for me) puts Clark's decision to out his identity into a different light. With Ma and Pa dead, there weren't too many people in Clark's life that weren't also in Superman's.. so it didn't see "as" bad, playing Devil's advocate. However.... with them alive? Imo, this makes his decision much more irresponsible. Not even just from a villain perspective - what about the way people will treat them, etc? It just makes his decision so much more juvenile, to me.

[manwhohaseverything]

New52 earth and other earths existing matters for people who don't have an affinity for postcrisis superman and status quo.If they ever decide to publish books like superman smashes the klan. It can be part of those earths. Take me for instance , the only book i really loved with postcrisis superman "superman for all seasons". And that's because it was so character driven and humble. So, i am glad i get to have my supermen. And people who like postcrisis guy can have him.

[SuperCrab]

I'm not sure if this "solution" really works for anyone? Take new-52 Superman, does it matter that he exists in his own universe if we won't get any series featuring him? Practically it is same as if he didn't exist. Best case scenario he could get a cameo in some story... which he already did in Sideways annual so Doomsday Clock in practical sense changed nothing.

When it became clear that New52 was being sidelined and seemed unlikely to return as the Superman of the mainstream DC Universe, some of his fans, myself included, wondered why DC Comics couldn't at least throw us a bone and give us a single ongoing monthly New52 Superman book that existed in it's own continuity on a different earth, that basically picked up where the New52 Superman left off, only without his death (Earlier we talked about scenarios where the two Supermen would share the same earth and one would alter their civilian status quo, uniform, and maybe superhero name a bit to be distinctive, like the two Spider-Men in Marvel, but that clearly wasn't happening after a while). We figured it technically might not be him, just that earth's Superman, but that earth would be a universe that was exactly the same as the New52 to the point Superman died or so, and then would go on it's own even more New52 direction (No longer having to be the line's main Superman), giving us a version of Clark Kent literally identical to the one featured in the New52 era who'd experienced all of those adventurers as a starting point.

Of course, people pointed out that it might be confusing. After all, the New52 universe was technically continued in Rebirth, which wasn't a clear-cut total reboot. After a while, it was retconned that the New52 Superman was supposedly only half of Superman's soul, Superman Red, resting in Lana Lang after his death (Thus explaining why Superwoman was the one good comic from the Rebirth era, other than the JLA that was finishing an arc in the past with the actual New52 Superman), and reuniting with the other half, Superman Blue, resting in "SuperDad's" body. Superman (Both of them) kind of outsmarted the forces against him and reunited his halves and timelines (Adopted parents deaths aside. We did at least get a good scene of Lois and Jon thrown off a tower in extradimentional space by Mxy, and New52 Superman, from nowhere, flying up with one in each arm starting Mxy down before the super-merger.).

Actually, the above Superman Reborn scenario would have been good for New52 fans if it had really gone 50-50 on who the resulting character was, but the resulting character, at least initially, was pretty clearly just the Rebirth Superman, except that he'd now retroactively always existed and been known by the universe he was in, which no longer remembered the two Supermen separately. We got a panel or two of history that showed the the Reborn Superman in the New52 costume and drawn to the Kryptonian body armor New52 spec delivering Jon (Making that costume and look technically canonical as a past look of the current Superman- although the timeline just changed again with Doomsday Clock, so we don't really know now.), and a scene battling Ulysses, a new52 villain, in the book that reunited the two Supermen, but subsequent books were pretty clear that there weren't strong plans to continue the New52 character as part of a composite, that the merger was mostly about getting the Rebirth Superman where they wanted him within the continuity- with I suppose the minor consolation that some of the New52 adventurers we bought and followed in a may have happened in a different way for the current Superman, even though they never mention them (We thought a merger scenario would involve Superman remembering both timelines in full, but he actually had a new combo timeline instead that was mostly post-Crisis/SuperDad and all he remembered).

Anyway, bottom lining it- Saying that the New52 Superman also still exists in a separate universe as a separate person in theory means they could do that New52 Superman monthly we wanted, or at least have him appear in Crisis-type crossovers. One example would be in the SuperDad era, Tomasi did a 2 or 3 issue thing about the multiverse and we saw all sorts of Supermen in the background, but they carefully avoided a high-collared or jeans and t-shirt one. If they did that crossover today, we'd probably see the New52 Superman, at least in the background. Basically, while I don't really expect a monthly to really happen (Though I wish it would), there is no longer any canonical barrier to the book where the issue of the current Superman technically being partly the New52 Superman would have to be dealt with to set up such a book. The current Superman still *is* partly the New52 Superman (Technically), but there is also a full New52 Superman existing on Earth 52.

Frankly, I unfortunately don't expect to see much of the New52 Superman. That monthly I want is a pipe dream. I actually think it's more likely that if he returns in a substantial way, that he'll wind up being an Ultraman-like villain who recurs in books not his own (Which is not something I want to see, much as I love the character. I don't think it would not really be the character- it'd be like when Kal-L was brought back as a villain. It never made sense as an outgrowth of who he was. Incidentally, there appears like there is now a universe when Kal-L is still alive, too, and never turned to the dark side.).

*Although*, if a famous comic book writer, author, or celebrity, wanted to write a monthly and specifically asked to do Superman on Earth 52 because he or she was personally a fan, that might make it happen. I don't know anyone like that off the top of my head. Maybe Grant Morrison could get it done (Although he may only be a fan of the early New52 Superman he wrote, so I'm not sure if he would go to bat to write a continuation of the entirety of New52 Superman's history picking up at his apparent death. Maybe he would. He could follow up on his early plotlines years later with Kryptonian body armor Superman [As an aside, wasn't the body armor destroyed in the Superflare era? If so, they'd need to find a way to bring that back. Shouldn't be hard. Maybe he has a spare he forgot about or didn't know about somewhere in the Fortress of Solitude.]).

If I were famous as prose author or something, you can bet I'd be approaching DC Comics with that. I'm not, though.

[BBally]

To anyone who's upset about the JSA being around before Superman, people complained when the JSA was removed from the main Earth during the New52, because they felt that removed the DCU's superhero legacy that was prominent in the Post Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint timeline.

[Sacred Knight]

Oh I get the argument for it. I respect it. But I wholeheartedly disagree with it.

[Dispenser Of Truth]

To anyone who's upset about the JSA being around before Superman, people complained when the JSA was removed from the main Earth during the New52, because they felt that removed the DCU's superhero legacy that was prominent in the Post Crisis/Pre-Flashpoint timeline.

Except the comics pretending the JSA matters fractionally as much as Superman, much less substantially *more*, isn't just dumb fake nonsense that's the precise opposite of the real-world publishing history it's riffing on but diminishes literally every character involved.

[manwhohaseverything]

Superman is the first hero of Earth-2, Earth-1985, Earth-52.. Etc as well as the first story of DC narrative and the centre of the metaverse . That is more than enough for me.

[BBally]

Except the comics pretending the JSA matters fractionally as much as Superman, much less substantially *more*, isn't just dumb fake nonsense that's the precise opposite of the real-world publishing history it's riffing on but diminishes literally every character involved.

Either way, it worked as many comic fans were upset at that change in the status quo and demanded to see the JSA back in the main Earth and not on an alternative Earth, whether you like it or not, the number of readers who wanted the JSA in main Earth seem to outweigh the number of readers who wanted them out. I don't have a horse in this race but it is what it is.

Also I remember Pre-Crisis Superman after the Guardian according to Kirby's run on Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen.

[Kuwagaton]

The idea of no superhuman activity before Superman gets harder. At this point that would mean well after 9-11. And then WWII is irresistible for some odd reason. But that's the only way I've ever actually gotten the appeal of the old JSA. I guess they're popular for another reason? I don't really care if Superman was first but it bugs me that they have to be before him and as I've read of this comic, actually inspire him. I don't even like it when the Legion is given that distinction.

[HsssH]

The idea of no superhuman activity before Superman gets harder. At this point that would mean well after 9-11. And then WWII is irresistible for some odd reason. But that's the only way I've ever actually gotten the appeal of the old JSA. I guess they're popular for another reason? I don't really care if Superman was first but it bugs me that they have to be before him and as I've read of this comic, actually inspire him. I don't even like it when the Legion is given that distinction.

This is one of the things that I liked about Earth-2 idea during new 52. Instead of WWII they had a war against Apokolips. Sure, execution had problems and some changes to the characters were weird to say the least, but I think that such war gave lots of flexibility to basically put JSA origins anywhere they want in the timeline.