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  1. #1
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Default What was the point of Mr. Oz? *Doomsday Clock #12 spoilers*

    So, Doomsday Clock has finished without a word about Mr. Oz, a mysterious character who was introduced by Johns during the New 52 and revealed to be Jor-El by Jurgens. I think we all kind of assumed that there'd be at least a line or two explain why Dr. Manhattan would pluck Jor-El from the past, and torture him repeatedly in order to transform him into some kind of shadowy master manipulator who was himself controlled by an even greater threat.

    Now that Doomsday Clock is done, it appears that wasn't Dr. Manhattan at all, at least it doesn't make any sense for it to have been. Dr. Manhattan was never really the villain of Doomsday Clock, but rather someone who made one single change to the DCU that had disastrous consequences and was manipulated by Ozymandias, who was another prime candidate for Mr. Oz or the one pulling his strings.

    So, in the end, what was the point of the whole character? We know he wasn't originally intended to be Jor-El by Johns, because Jurgens admitted that they decided upon who it would be. We know Bendis didn't intend to bring Jor-El back either, but he used that development to get Clark where he wanted him.

    Was this whole thing just a case of editorial confusion and mismanagement or do you think someone will end up explaining all this? Do you even want it explained or would you rather they just move on from this whole fiasco?

  2. #2
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I think its definitely just something that was completely dropped in regards to DDC. It was clearly supposed to be connected, the Rebirth team even made sure to implement some obvious hints of the connection when they picked the character back up, but Johns obviously elected to not implement it. Whatever the reason he didn't, I'm convinced it was originally supposed to though, 100%. I don't think we'll ever know what the original point of him was though, as I don't think it will be explained now and don't really think there's a point to it anyway. Continuity will inevitably be rewritten again--hell Johns basically spells out that this will continue to be DC's calling card--at which point all the Oz/Jor-El stuff can and most likely will just be erased from ever having had happened in the first place.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-19-2019 at 01:57 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  3. #3
    Fantastic Member
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    I'm pretty sure it was explained that he wanted to break Jor-el's hope. Well, it wasn't outright stated to be Manhattan at the time, but it was heavily hinted and breaking his hope seems to go alongside the experiments he made here.

    Also, he didn't do a single change. Aside from the death of Clark's parents, there was at least taking away Alan Scott's lantern.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Dropped plotline just like how Bruce and Barry were somehow able to travel to the Flashpoint Universe. The Button ended up not mattering at all. Neither did Owlman getting zapped. Ultimately it was all just teases that went nowhere which is a Johns trademark to be fair lol. Remember the Rise of the Seven Seas?

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    There was another thread on this a while back. My personal theory is that they had some kind of New 52 based plan around him and when the New 52 fell through, they were sort of stuck with him as a plot thread and didn't know where to go with him. So he just petered out. I'm going with "editorial mismanagement" on this one.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  6. #6
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    It is entirely possible that Mr. Oz was originally intended to be explained in DDC, but as DDC became more and more delayed, the rest of the DCU started to go in its own direction without trying to tie into it, and when Johns lost his position as a DC exec DDC became essentially an Elseworlds out-of-continuity story. Mr. Oz was probably supposed to help explain how the flamed-out Nuperman and New Lois were replaced by their pre-Flashpoint versions, but by now DC hopes you don't remember that it happened at all, just as the characters in the DCU themselves don't remember it either.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Dropped plotline just like how Bruce and Barry were somehow able to travel to the Flashpoint Universe.
    That actually works within the context of the Metaverse now though. Because the Flashpoint Universe became an actual Earth in the mulitverse. Earth 0 would have branched off into a Post-Infinite or Final Crisis DCU Earth with Flashpoint becoming the Prime Earth, then Flashpoint would have branched off into its own Earth when New 52 became the Prime Earth, so on and so forth. King's portrayal of things recently in Batman actually is completely consistent with DDC's Metaverse concept. More so than anything Bendis has done. Though that may not be his fault - He couldn't have had the New Legion recognize Clark over in Superman without spoiling DDC more I suppose.

    Someone should ask Bendis on Twitter if he'll explain the connections he's talked about for the last two years, because right now it's still just as vague as when he started other than the oblique way Ma & Pa Kent were talked about in his run.

  8. #8

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    Pretty much all the DDC references during Rebirth went absolutely nowhere.

    Mr. Oz
    Wally's Return
    The Button

    None of it really mattered to the overall series as it turns out or for the future of the DCU. I guess blame the delays and DC's complete abandonment of Rebirth at around the time Metal was published.

  9. #9
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    mr. oz might not but the reborn even though not referenced made sense because of the metaverse.The reasons why lois and Clark's love warps reality .

    I say, we have to wait till the tie-in issue with doomsday clock is published. It might not have it. But, bendis did say he will work towards it.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    mr. oz might not but the reborn even though not referenced made sense because of the metaverse.The reasons why lois and Clark's love warps reality .
    That never made any sense. The Lois and Clark who came from the pre-Flashpoint universe already were married, and when they arrived in the New 52 universe they were already parents. For years they raised Jon in California, as a happy family. Then after the New 52 Lois and Clark (who were not married) both died, the pre-Flashpoint couple took their places, but Clark's fellow super-heroes knew that "their" Superman had died and this new guy was Superman from a different world. How, then did Lois and Clark's love make the two timelines merge? It wasn't necessary for them to merge in order for them to find true love with each other, since they were already married and had raised a 10-year old kid together, as "outsiders" in the New 52 universe. Their love had managed quite well without the merger of the timelines, so how can it be used as an explanation for that merger?

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seismic-2 View Post
    That never made any sense. The Lois and Clark who came from the pre-Flashpoint universe already were married, and when they arrived in the New 52 universe they were already parents. For years they raised Jon in California, as a happy family. Then after the New 52 Lois and Clark (who were not married) both died, the pre-Flashpoint couple took their places, but Clark's fellow super-heroes knew that "their" Superman had died and this new guy was Superman from a different world. How, then did Lois and Clark's love make the two timelines merge? It wasn't necessary for them to merge in order for them to find true love with each other, since they were already married and had raised a 10-year old kid together, as "outsiders" in the New 52 universe. Their love had managed quite well without the merger of the timelines, so how can it be used as an explanation for that merger?
    Mxy had the essence of new52 superman and lois. Jon freed them. But, they kind of took over and changed the preflashpoint superman and lois lane. Which means by metaverse rule the universe would have changed to new52 universe, erasing rebirth changes that started with wally. Instead, jon made new52 clois listen to the preflashpoint clois's spirit. So, they kind of meld together instead of trying to take over.

  12. #12
    Spectacular Member
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    I'm going to guess Geoff Johns had other ideas *cough cough* Rebirth costume, but the hiring of Bendis I think screwed things up. So I'm guessing Geoff had to do a lot of rewrites so as to not clash with "the great Bendis" lol

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Mxy had the essence of new52 superman and lois. Jon freed them. But, they kind of took over and changed the preflashpoint superman and lois lane. Which means by metaverse rule the universe would have changed to new52 universe, erasing rebirth changes that started with wally. Instead, jon made new52 clois listen to the preflashpoint clois's spirit. So, they kind of meld together instead of trying to take over.
    I realize that's what happened, but attributing it to the love between Clark and Lois made no sense to me. There is no reason that their love would cause their pre- and post-Flashpoint identities to merge. Their love had already kept their pre-Flashpoint identities alive and well in the New 52, and it could have continued to do so without being merged with their "new" versions.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seismic-2 View Post
    I realize that's what happened, but attributing it to the love between Clark and Lois made no sense to me. There is no reason that their love would cause their pre- and post-Flashpoint identities to merge. Their love had already kept their pre-Flashpoint identities alive and well in the New 52, and it could have continued to do so without being merged with their "new" versions.
    They were inhabiting the same body. The love clark and lois had for each other and jon was the reason they won the 'negotiations' so to speak for the body with new52 clois. Since, superman changed the timeline changed as well, due to metaverse rule.
    No, preflashpoint clois didn't get their identities. They were treated like a virus by the new52 earth. Swamp thing interfering and changing superman had given some reprieve. But, they were really living other people's lives. They were not of this changed new52 earth. They had to be made of this earth. For that they took in some of new52 as well.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    They were inhabiting the same body. The love clark and lois had for each other and jon was the reason they won the 'negotiations' so to speak for the body with new52 clois. Since, superman changed the timeline changed as well, due to metaverse rule.
    No, preflashpoint clois didn't get their identities. They were treated like a virus by the new52 earth. Swamp thing interfering and changing superman had given some reprieve. But, they were really living other people's lives. They were not of this changed new52 earth. They had to be made of this earth. For that they took in some of new52 as well.
    We'll have to disagree about that. I don't think they had to be made of this earth, since they had already managed to live in it just fine for 10 years in California. Yes, they were living other people's lives, but Superman's fellow super-heroes had overcome their initial distrust and had come to accept the replacement Superman as a "real" Superman. Lois's colleagues at the Daily Planet accepted the "impostor" Lois Lane as genuine. They could have continued to live as pre-Flashpoint aliens in a post-Flashpoint world. (After all, what is Superman anyway, if not an alien from another world?) Even if it <i>were</i> necessary for the two versions of Clark and Lois to be merged, then the reason for the merge would be simply the necessity of making them one with the new environment, and <i>not</i> their love for each other (which would have continued without the merge)!

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