Clare-mazons: Do you love or hate them?

[Beezzi]

Over the last few weeks I've noticed a trend among certain posters - a passionate hate for anything associated with Claremont and the kind of women he helped pioneer - the "Clare-mazon".

The usual complaints seem to be that: they are too headstrong, too perfect, too tall, too skimpily dressed, too bossy, not sexually liberated enough, too sexually liberated, too this, too that and a thousand other things that posters consider to be just plain awful.

I've started this thread to have an open discussion about what it means to be a female X-Man in comics today. What does Clare-mazon mean to you? Do these "Clare-mazons" still have a role to play? Which female X-Man is the embodiment of Clare-mazon? Why do you hate or love them? Do you think Claremont gets too much credit? Do you respect the contribution CC made in helping to invent the anti-damsel-in-distress? Which current writers are doing the best job at promoting women as equals to men in the Marvel Universe.

What is your perfect X-woman and which values should she promote?

I started reading X-comics because of characters like Storm, Jean, Rogue, Psylocke, Kitty, Jubilee and Yana - but after seeing so many negative comments about this trope, I'm left wondering what a new generation of X-reader wants.

[Rnap22]

Over the last few weeks I've noticed a trend among certain posters - a passionate hate for anything associated with Claremont and the kind of women he helped pioneer - the "Clare-mazon".

The usual complaints seem to be that: they are too headstrong, too perfect, too tall, too skimpily dressed, too bossy, not sexually liberated enough, too sexually liberated, too this, too that and a thousand other things that posters consider to be just plain awful.

I've started this thread to have an open discussion about what it means to be a female X-Man in comics today. What does Clare-mazon mean to you? Do these "Clare-mazons" still have a role to play? Which female X-Man is the embodiment of Clare-mazon? Why do you hate or love them? Do you think Claremont gets too much credit? Do you respect the contribution CC made in helping to invent the anti-damsel-in-distress? Which current writers are doing the best job at promoting women as equals to men in the Marvel Universe.

What is your perfect X-woman and which values should she promote?

I started reading X-comics because of characters like Storm, Jean, Rogue, Psylocke, Kitty, Jubilee and Yana - but after seeing so many negative comments about this trope, I'm left wondering what a new generation of X-reader wants.

I miss CC's take on Storm and Psylocke. Storm was an awesome leader. She wasn't a bitch, but she wasn't some lightweight that you could push around. Even without her powers she bested Cyclops for leadership. I miss the old Storm. Since she's come back to the X-men, she's been written as unsure or as not commanding respect. I think it's kind of an insult to the character she developed into when CC wrote her.

[Deer God]

I grew up reading the awesomeness that are the Claremazons. They are the reason that the X-Men are popular in the first place. I enjoy fleshed out characters that have different personalities.

Perhaps the new generation of readers only want an emoji friendly character that looks "different" and "artsy" that they can tweet about and put on the cover of their phone. Who needs character development when you can have Shark-tits on your Hot Topic shirt?

[wunderpanda]

Storm is still the prototype, and I feel the term refers more to the layers CC gave to his characters. Looking at Storm under his run, she was trained as a child thief, pick pocket and then worshiped as a goddess before she joined the team. She went on to share her soul with a space whale, lose her powers because of Forge but still lead the team, be reverted to a child, become leader of the Morlocks, turned down advances by Dracula and Dr Doom and that all happened in 100 issues.

Growth thru chaos, he killed Jean and remade her as Phoenix, Rogue has the history with Mystique and Danvers, Yana was trapped by demons in limbo, Psylocke was tossed through the Siege Perilous, Rachel came from the prison camp future. All had to overcome some extremely random circumstances to become the strong characters they are.

Not sure if CC gets the right credit, he was out front in making female characters equal to the males, Emma, Mystique, Moira and even Stevie Hunter were portrayed strong in supporting or adversarial roles. I do think he lacked in showing distress. 13 year old Kitty taking on the Hellfire Club in her debut is a prime example.

Whoever made Jubilee into a vampire and gave her Shogo could be following the Claremont design, growing her abilities and her depth of character. Making her responsible, vulnerable and burdened. Her first real development since Zero Tolerance.

[MarvelMaster616]

I can see how some would not like Claremont's style. There are times, I think, where Claremont doesn't apply it appropriately for certain characters. But for the most part, it works. I think the recent Nightcrawler series has been a great demonstration of why this style works whereas X-men Forever is a demonstration of how it can fail. But when looking at Claremont's legacy as a whole, I think he's got a lot more hits than misses. I've noticed that he tends to focus less on the flaws and weaknesses of a character and more on the strengths. I think this era of reader that has been spoiled by anti-heroes doesn't jive with that as well as readers of the past. But I think there's still a place for it in comics, especially with the X-men.

[Sundowhn]

Storm is still the prototype, and I feel the term refers more to the layers CC gave to his characters. [...]
All had to overcome some extremely random circumstances to become the strong characters they are.

Not sure if CC gets the right credit, he was out front in making female characters equal to the males, Emma, Mystique, Moira and even Stevie Hunter were portrayed strong in supporting or adversarial roles. I do think he lacked in showing distress. 13 year old Kitty taking on the Hellfire Club in her debut is a prime example.

[...]

I think all this is true. At it's best, he basically gave female characters the same sorts of stories and motivations normally only reserved for male characters. Storm, Rogue, Rachel, Kitty, Betsy, Yana -- these are all perfect examples of the uniqueness he brought to a group that was, in the past, just about pin-up material. Having said that, I do get some of the later complaints because it got to a point of sameness after awhile. Every female character was going to be fearless and ass-kicking, beautiful but indifferent to her beauty, honorable and heroic and superior in every way to her male counterpart. There was no variation, and it became formulaic. There was no female character with real vulnerabilities and insecurities from within, only those from external circumstances (Rogue with touch, Jean and the PF, Ororo and closed spaces as opposed to Wolverine and his animal streak or Kurt and his sense of personal worth). As a woman reader, it was hard to relate to that sort of perfection.

He did the best on this Claremazon trope with Excalibur era Kitty, imo, in showing a character that was a hero, but still had very real human failings at the time -- she was insecure over her appearance and insecure over guys, she questioned herself and the team incessantly, she occasionally had her pettiness or impulsiveness (i.e. she made mistakes) but faced her problems with a dry wit and earthy let's-get-to-it kind of attitude. It's nice, because even in the series, Kitty points out Rachel and her "perfection"(the typical Claremazon) and wonders how she can possibly compare.

I'm really not sure what readers are looking for these days. It seems if you throw out nice outfits and snarky quips, many of the posters here are happy.

[just another user]

If you don't like Clare-mazons go read the Avengers or something. X Men always has been and always should be about strong female characters.

[fod_xp]

What I didn't like about Claremont's writing of women was the constant sexploitation of these characters through pornographic fetishes. I don't particularly like his compulsion for every story involving his female characters include rape of some kind, use of sick Japanese fetishes, and female characters deriving sexual self-gratification by inflicting pain or death on others.

[Kuwagaton]

I think the ones who don't care for them are following Marvel's lead. The comics right now are mostly terrible and it's all about making the women of the Avengers or Asgard happen.

X Men always has been and always should be about strong female characters.

Except for the first and last decades.

[dragonmp93]

I like them, they were awesome, badass, and at least, bi-sexuals; nowdays, the only ones that seem to be doing something are storm and teenage jean grey.

I think the ones who don't care for them are following Marvel's lead. The comics right now are mostly terrible and it's all about making the women of the Avengers or Asgard happen.



Except for the first and last decades.

Well, back in the sixties, maybe jean was the weakest member of the x-men, but, she wasnt a damsel in constant distress.

[JediMindTrick]

Claremont is the reason I love the X-men and I started reading them back in the early 80's. At first his women characters didn't bother me but eventually they began too. Some of it was just his writing style but in certain cases like Storm it was his over emphasis on making her so perfect and arrogant. Its why to this day Storm is my least favorite important X-man.

That said Rogue, who in reality is one of his few true creations, is still one of my favorites. I say true creation because while he certainly gets the credit for developing characters like Storm and many other important X-men he didn't have a hand in creating most of them. He only gets a partial for Kitty Pryde as John Byrne was still co-writing when she came around. In fact the only important female X-men I can think of that are his and his alone are Rogue, Rachel Summers (or was Byrne still there for DOFP - I know he quit before it was released but I think he may have written it as well), Psylocke, and Jubilee. And he let Jim Lee ruin Psylocke with the whole race swap thing that also basically utterly changed her personality at the same time.

[IdaqiBeauty]

Storm was no more arrogant than Cyclops and Xavier.

[Pharozonk]

I think they are an important aspect of the X-Men, but they aren't the be all end all of it either.

[Likewater]

I love em'...yeah not much more to say there.

[vitamin]

I miss them.