Star Wars Episode IX: Rise of Skywalker (Spoilers)

[SuperiorIronman]

Kylo Ren's redemption is just such a bizzare direction given how TLJ ended. Together he and Rey killed Snoke and it looked like they might join forces, on the dark side, to rule the First Order. Now that would've been a bold direction for Disney's trilogy, could've maybe even given Finn a chance to step-up and have some real heroic moments. But instead what we got with Kylo is perhaps the least convincing turncoat in Star Wars history.

What really should've happened is have Rey die after confronting Palpatine. Rey becomes a Jedi slaying her undead Grandfather and a weakened Ben Solo has to watch as his army falls, the power he is promised is taken from him, and the one he tried connecting with dies in his arms and he can do nothing. On top of that the only people who can vouch for the good in him are dead. If he was also to become a Jedi he's also deprived of a teacher, would be distrustful of most given Palpatine, and the last Jedi knowledge is in the hands of the New Republic among the people he spent the last few years pissing off. That just sounds like a way more interesting hook to me.

[Xero Kaiser]

Don't get me started out the Rey is a Palpitine twist, shows that you can only be a powerful Jedi because of your Lineage! I loved that TLJ basically showed that any one can become a Jedi.

That was never in question to begin with though. Most Force users don't really come from some long line of Jedi/Sith.

The ST's problem is that it wanted to fast-track Rey into being the very best like no one ever was, and now they're stuck trying to come up with a half-assed explanation for it.

[Mider2009]

That was never in question to begin with though. Most Force users don't really come from some long line of Jedi/Sith.

The ST's problem is that it wanted to fast-track Rey into being the very best like no one ever was, and now they're stuck trying to come up with a half-assed explanation for it.

Well...in the EU Luke had a strong family line of force users, and Yodas race seems to be force sensitive.

While others don’t so you’re right, but even with Anakin and a Luke they needed training and both got there asses kicked by better trained opponents.

For example, Luke was owned by Vader and lost a hand but beat him and brought him to the light side, but he had training by Obi Wan and Yoda. Anakin was the chosen one but was defeated by Dooku but eventually got better and beat him.

This chick has never held a saber and suddenly beats Kylo Ren and now Sidious.

[Mia]

Yeah I expected her to be a stock/tough chick character but that scene and others were very telling. Hopefully there's more stories for that character.

It's one of the many things that make this film so beautiful for me and gives it depth. People behave like human beings with feelings and vulnerabilities not plastic action figures. Whether that be :
• Rey breaking down when Kylo tries to bring up the fact that her parents abandoned her
• The friendly/competitive jock like banter between Poe and Finn
• Kylo panicking and looking frightened when Rey dies. The way holds her close and rocks back and forth with her is just astonishing.
• Rey being scared out of her wits at confronting her grandfather and the Sith
• Or even Chewbacka getting offended at being referred to as a beast.

The haters who castigate Johnson for TLJ because of Luke's behaviour for the bulk of the TLJ have a very poor understanding of human nature. Ignoring the fact that people change over time especially when they go through the difficulties, failures and disappointments. Expecting a 50 year old man to behave and think the exact same way he did when he was in his 20's is just ludicrous.

That was never in question to begin with though. Most Force users don't really come from some long line of Jedi/Sith.

The ST's problem is that it wanted to fast-track Rey into being the very best like no one ever was, and now they're stuck trying to come up with a half-assed explanation for it.

I don’t know where you got that impression. Rey was never portrayed as being the best Jedi. Even the times she ‘beat’ Kylo and Luke. It was never really a defeat because they either pulled their punches, didn’t fight back or she got them while they were distracted. And furthermore it’s not as if she alone was the one who took down the FO.
She’s a valuable asset for sure because of her powers not to mention the 10 years she spent building resilience, mental toughness and probably combat skills after having being abandoned as a child and having to fend for herself. And of course the rebel alliance (from what we see on screen) seems to be a tiny band of maybe 200-400 people. It’s not hard for her to stand out. She’s tough, smart and determined those are very valuable skills in fighter/leader.

[ChrisIII]

There's some details about some of the voice actors for the aliens coming out: Mark Hammil voiced the ill-fated horned alien Boolio, and Shrirley Henderson (Moaning mrytle in Harry Potter) was the voice of Babu Frik

[Powerboy]

It's one of the many things that make this film so beautiful for me and gives it depth. People behave like human beings with feelings and vulnerabilities not plastic action figures. Whether that be :
• Rey breaking down when Kylo tries to bring up the fact that her parents abandoned her
• The friendly/competitive jock like banter between Poe and Finn
• Kylo panicking and looking frightened when Rey dies. The way holds her close and rocks back and forth with her is just astonishing.
• Rey being scared out of her wits at confronting her grandfather and the Sith
• Or even Chewbacka getting offended at being referred to as a beast.

The haters who castigate Johnson for TLJ because of Luke's behaviour for the bulk of the TLJ have a very poor understanding of human nature. Ignoring the fact that people change over time especially when they go through the difficulties, failures and disappointments. Expecting a 50 year old man to behave and think the exact same way he did when he was in his 20's is just ludicrous.



I don’t know where you got that impression. Rey was never portrayed as being the best Jedi. Even the times she ‘beat’ Kylo and Luke. It was never really a defeat because they either pulled their punches, didn’t fight back or she got them while they were distracted. And furthermore it’s not as if she alone was the one who took down the FO.
She’s a valuable asset for sure because of her powers not to mention the 10 years she spent building resilience, mental toughness and probably combat skills after having being abandoned as a child and having to fend for herself. And of course the rebel alliance (from what we see on screen) seems to be a tiny band of maybe 200-400 people. It’s not hard for her to stand out. She’s tough, smart and determined those are very valuable skills in fighter/leader.

That part may be not so much that they don't understand it as that it's not the Luke they're looking for although there is certainly an element of pretending like he was one guy a minute ago and then someone else, ignoring the thirty years that were not in a movie.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Kylo Ren's redemption is just such a bizzare direction given how TLJ ended. Together he and Rey killed Snoke and it looked like they might join forces, on the dark side, to rule the First Order. Now that would've been a bold direction for Disney's trilogy, could've maybe even given Finn a chance to step-up and have some real heroic moments. But instead what we got with Kylo is perhaps the least convincing turncoat in Star Wars history.

Honestly with how the first order became a joke and Kylo bring the only villain with notoriety it's kind of a rock and a hard place. I think they realized how much of an underdog they made Kylo too late. So making him the big bad was unlikely to work. It kind of reeks of pressing the panic button.

That was never in question to begin with though. Most Force users don't really come from some long line of Jedi/Sith.

The ST's problem is that it wanted to fast-track Rey into being the very best like no one ever was, and now they're stuck trying to come up with a half-assed explanation for it.

Thank you. I for one am tired of people claiming The Last Jedi showed anyone could be a hero. Like that was ever in question. I'm pretty sure we already knew that.

[anyajenkins]

That was one I never understood either... That’s how the force always worked, it could run in families, but usually didn’t.

As far as Keylo Ren’s redemption arc, I was against it after the first two movies. He was a jerk, leave it. But this movie somewhat convince me. The line about Palpatine being a literal ‘voice in his head’ for years (so when Kylo was talking to the Vader mask in the first one, he was actually ‘hearing’ vader talking back)does give make for some ‘mitigating circumstances’ beyond he’s a jerk who wants to prove he’s a really big jerk. Also when Adam Driver player ‘Ben’ so much better than ‘Kylo.’ That might have been a factoring in selling it.

[Robotman]

Overall I really liked it. It was a much needed palate cleanser after The Last Jedi, which I hated. Rey as a Palpatine was odd. Why would the Emperor spend all this time trying to convert the Skywalker family when his offspring are potentially even more powerful? And of course there’s the matter of the mystery fleet and crew coming out of nowhere. I guess try not to overthink it. I thought Ben’s redemption was handled well. Leia sacrificing herself to basically exorcise Kylo from his soul was pretty great. Which led to Ben sacrificing his remaining life to resurrect Rey. I wonder if he transferred some of Leia’s essence into her. I think they did a great job of utilizing what little footage they had of Carrie Fischer. Princess Leia, leader of the Resistance and Jedi Master! Plus Chewie finally got his damn medal! Glad they put some emphasis on Chewbacca showing a lot of sadness when Leia died. Still doesn’t make up for them not having him and Leia at least hug and console one another when Han died.

I do feel really bad for John Boyega. Finn became a totally pointless character. At least they kind of confirmed that he’s force sensitive.

That was one I never understood either... That’s how the force always worked, it could run in families, but usually didn’t.

As far as Keylo Ren’s redemption arc, I was against it after the first two movies. He was a jerk, leave it. But this movie somewhat convince me. The line about Palpatine being a literal ‘voice in his head’ for years (so when Kylo was talking to the Vader mask in the first one, he was actually ‘hearing’ vader talking back)does give make for some ‘mitigating circumstances’ beyond he’s a jerk who wants to prove he’s a really big jerk. Also when Adam Driver player ‘Ben’ so much better than ‘Kylo.’ That might have been a factoring in selling it.

Yeah the Emperor being in Ben’s ear all this time does help with this redemption. Now we know it wasn’t just an innate tendency towards the dark side. Luke felt a great darkness in Ben but had no idea that it was the Emperor as he was thought to be dead. From the shadows, Palpatine shaped Ben into a Sith and destroyed Luke’s confidence in his ability as a Jedi Master. But Luke and Leia have the last laugh as they trained a Palpatine to be a great Jedi and take down the ultimate Sith.

[WebLurker]

That was one I never understood either... That’s how the force always worked, it could run in families, but usually didn’t.

Yeah, I never got the whole thing about TLJ suddenly "democratizing" the Force and TROS proving only elites had it, or whatever; the world-building in the franchise has always showed that the Force was always "democratic" and could be hereditary. (Whether focusing on one version was better or not, or whether the Rey retcon on that point was good or bad can be debated, but that's something else.)

As far as Keylo Ren’s redemption arc, I was against it after the first two movies. He was a jerk, leave it. But this movie somewhat convince me. The line about Palpatine being a literal ‘voice in his head’ for years (so when Kylo was talking to the Vader mask in the first one, he was actually ‘hearing’ vader talking back)does give make for some ‘mitigating circumstances’ beyond he’s a jerk who wants to prove he’s a really big jerk. Also when Adam Driver player ‘Ben’ so much better than ‘Kylo.’ That might have been a factoring in selling it.

I don't think I ever was convinced that his redemption arc was a "good" thing. I very much agree that the first two movies convinced me he wasn't redeemable and I don't think TROS had enough space to build up to it. That said, Adam Driver did do a really good acting job with the material he was given, which leaves me in the position of "I don't agree with it, but I accept it for what it is).

Overall I really liked it. It was a much needed palate cleanser after The Last Jedi, which I hated. Rey as a Palpatine was odd. Why would the Emperor spend all this time trying to convert the Skywalker family when his offspring are potentially even more powerful?

We don't know much about his son (if the Force gene skipped a generation or something) and Rey was born well after ROTJ. So, Skywalkers were Palpatine's best resources at the times he was active. There's also the interesting question if his plan A was always to get Rey to take the throne, or if the offer to Kylo to be given the Final Order in exchange for killing Rey was his first plan and he changed up when Kylo repented.

[ChrisIII]

Like Vader and Luke, Ren's weak spot was always his parents-Snoke even says that after he killed Han Ren was unbalanced and hence was bested by Rey. Also he couldn't really bring himself to kill Leia either. So I think the first two films did hint that they would ultimately be his redemption.

[Mia]

That part may be not so much that they don't understand it as that it's not the Luke they're looking for although there is certainly an element of pretending like he was one guy a minute ago and then someone else, ignoring the thirty years that were not in a movie.

Which is why I don't pay any attention to the bashing of TLJ (and I suspect neither did Disney), the problem is not with the film. The problem is with the viewer.

I sat down to re-watch TFA yesterday and in explaining Luke's absence Han (and I am paraphrasing here) said that a student that he was training turned bad and Luke became depressed because of it and quit. This is not a story line that Rian Johnson came up with that line of story for Luke, It was there from the beginning of the story. Luke was supposed to be in a depressed funk at the start of TLJ. But he came back around by the end of the film. I guess after being around Rey, Chewie and realizing that he was being irresponsible.

Like Vader and Luke, Ren's weak spot was always his parents-Snoke even says that after he killed Han Ren was unbalanced and hence was bested by Rey. Also he couldn't really bring himself to kill Leia either. So I think the first two films did hint that they would ultimately be his redemption.

Heh. The novelization says that part of Ren's being unbalanced in letting Rey best him in the fight. Was straight up male ego in trying to impress the pretty girl. But I agree with you. Re-watching TFA yesterday, you can see how childish and impulsive Ren is. Much of it stems to lashing out like an angry teenager. Over TLJ and ROS he becomes much calmer. Part of it has to do with Rey's influence on him and his desire to win her over or be worthy of her respect. But I also get the impression that he understands that killing is father and the motivations behind it were just stupid, born of resentment and stupidly believing Snoke's promises to make him like his grandfather. In TLJ and the ROS you can see that he slowly starts to make changes.

I never understood why he turned on Snoke, until a fan pointed out that it was when Snoke was hurting Rey. I think that helped to make him see things differently. Of course he is a proud man and can't wholly admit that he's wrong so he doesn't make a complete change. He also understands that if he just ups and quits TFO not only will he be killed but it won't change anything. Being on the inside he can affect changes slowly. In ROS you can see that he started to curb the brutality of TFO, when a commander asks about blowing up the Kamiji he stops them cold.

[WebLurker]

Like Vader and Luke, Ren's weak spot was always his parents-Snoke even says that after he killed Han Ren was unbalanced and hence was bested by Rey. Also he couldn't really bring himself to kill Leia either. So I think the first two films did hint that they would ultimately be his redemption.

Thing is, Kylo shows no remorse for killing his father until ROTS. We're told time and again that it badly affected him, but I'd rather have seen it. As far as his mother, it was a showing example, but in a movie that ended with Kylo firmly a bad guy with no interest in redemption.

Does knowing where the writers take the story change the perspective a bit? Yes. However, while I will "accept" that this's where the character ends up, I still do not think it was a well-written story, if that makes any sense.

[Vic Vega]

Finally saw the thing after over a week of avoiding spoilers like they were machine gun flack in an action flick.

It was...fine.

As well made as any piece of cinematic cowardice I've ever seen.

The movie goes out of its way to retcon ALL the most interesting parts of The Last Jedi: (you don't need to be anyone in particular to use The Force, The Jedi and the Sith aren't the be and end all of the Galaxy).

It then replaces them with dopier premises that are kinda badly explained.

spoilers:

You mean to tell me Ray's Dad is Lord Palpatine's son and this imperial aristocrat can't think of anything better plan to hide her than to strand his daughter on a desert planet?

end of spoilers

spoilers:

I get how Emperor Palp can build a fleet with the Empire's resources. But how did he do that as a half dead DarkSide zombie at the bottom of a pit? What'd he do create an army of Zombie Engineers?

end of spoilers

This movie didn't even have the guts to spoilers:

let Threepio's memory wipe sacrifice stick

end of spoilers

So I think its pretty hilarious that not only did the critics who liked TLJ bash the movie. But if Youtube is anything
to judge by, the Nerds they tried to appease ended up hating it anyway.

[Agent Z]

That was never in question to begin with though. Most Force users don't really come from some long line of Jedi/Sith.

The ST's problem is that it wanted to fast-track Rey into being the very best like no one ever was, and now they're stuck trying to come up with a half-assed explanation for it.

But how many of those Force users were the main protagonists of the Star Wars films?

When you examine the context of Rey's feats they aren't as far fetched as you think. She's familiar with machinery because she's a scavenger and she beat Kylo Ren due to him being injured, unfocused and poorly trained.