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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I think lacking any sort of road map is what really hurt this recent set of sequals.

    If Disney/Marvel can do it with nearly two dozen movies then Disney/Lucus should at least be able to pull it off with 3.
    This is my take as well. It's like throwing stuff on the wall and seeing what sticks each time, with little cohesion from one movie to the next. I wouldn't be shocked if the next trilogy somewhat reneges on this current output, which would be sad considering the legacy that spawned from the OT lasted decades and everything that's followed, imo, has never been able to live up to it, let alone match it. The movies don't need to be perfect but I feel like there's something fundamentally missing here. Individually, they are alright but as a whole? I don't think so. For all the faults of the prequels (they were many), at least there was a point to them, a clear direction even if it was the wrong direction, lol.

  2. #92
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The people that are attacking Michael Burnham as a Mary Sue are likely racist/sexist. I have no problem saying that considering how flawed the character is. Shes far from a perfect protagonist, the only problem people have with her is shes a strong black female, something racists have problem with. And no, I don't listen to opinions from bigots off of YouTube that make hundreds of videos about feminism and SJWs. I have zero interest in listening to their fragility. If you could explain to me why Michael is too perfect without linking to bigoted youtube videos, I might understand where you're coming from better.

    There are female characters that could easily fit the cringeworthy "Mary Sue" (like Alice in the Resident Evil movies where the director is the star's husband) but Burnham is doesn't fit this and again I have no problem disproving this.


    Luke was floating at the end of The Last Jedi. Rey was also doing something similar. Force users have always used the force to defy gravity to a limited extent, like the Emperor straight levitating on the Republic chairs in Revenge of the Sith or Luke force jumping out of the carbonite machine.

    Now, the kiss was something that I didn't care for at all. I can't personally defend that.
    I an not people. I am singular person, with my own take on things that are pretty fair and logical. If you think my deslike for rey or Michael is all about race and gender then why do I like Princess Leia and Guinan? and think they are arguably the best characters and if those characters existed now, they could even get their own spin off Web series.

    Also, what link did I give that has ties to bigots? please can you resend it to me? I don't remember posting links and videos off bigots.

    There are female characters that could easily fit the cringeworthy "Mary Sue" (like Alice in the Resident Evil movies where the director is the star's husband) but Burnham is doesn't fit this and again I have no problem disproving this.
    I have never seen the resident evil movie but Michael is still a Mary sue, but that is not the topic for this thread.

    Luke was floating at the end of The Last Jedi. Rey was also doing something similar. Force users have always used the force to defy gravity to a limited extent, like the Emperor straight levitating on the Republic chairs in Revenge of the Sith or Luke force jumping out of the carbonite machine.
    Luke was floating in lest Jedi, its another bad movie that abuses the force. I don't think he was floating in ESB. Jedi can moves things with their minds, but they have never moved their self in movies. that was why they have ships to fly. they can't levitate themselves to movie around. Rey is basically Magneto at this point.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 12-22-2019 at 08:27 AM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    If you could use one word to describe Disney's trilogy 'stupid' would certainly be it. In TFA Disney failed at basic world building, even at the end we have no idea how the Republic functioned or where the First Order got their resources from. TLJ made it worse, the lightspeed ramming attack basically broke how space travel works in Star Wars, never mind all that idiocy over a fuel source which has never been significant before.

    Then you have TROS which made a mockery of the Force, inventing new powers that would seem overpowered even in an episode of Dragon Ball Z. Plus, the erasure of the Skywalker bloodline is frankly an affront to the source material that even Disney loyalists are balking at. So don't tell me that Disney is better, you're standing on a pile garbage and trying to tell me it's a mountain.
    I never said Disney is better. Stuff like God Sith and God Jedi is stuff straight out of the EU and ironically Disney is pulling stuff from the EU for the movies, except it isn't the good parts IMHO.

    Disney's stuff being bad doesn't retroactively make the garbage part of the EU (that Lucas himself discarded) any better. There was some good stuff of legends but a lot of it flat out ridiculous. The irony being that Lucas added in stupid stuff like the Midichlorians.

    Disney will make money from TROS but it's better they let the franchise rest a bit, get a "show runner" to guide themselves on the way forward.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  4. #94
    BANNED Beaddle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Yeah, I think lacking any sort of road map is what really hurt this recent set of sequals..
    They had a rough road map. what they should have done is get all 3 original directors of each movie. JJ Abrams, Rian Johnson and Colin Trevorrow to sit down and discuss their plans together.
    If Disney/Marvel can do it with nearly two dozen movies then Disney/Lucus should at least be able to pull it off with 3.
    Most and if not all Disney/Marvel with the exception of Hulk and Spiderman are not a good comparison to Disney/Star Wars, Disney/Marvel succeeded on ignorance of unknown supherheroes, ignorance of the reality that Marvel had sold all their well known characters when Disney bought marvel. Disney had to work with marvel characters nobody knew off, So Disney/marvel were able to get way with a lot.

    Star wars was already the greatest film series of all time, people knew the lore, they were not ignorant of star wars, even if they have never seen a star wars movie, they knew the pop culture references. there are grandmas who have never seen star wars but they know who Yoda is or know what yoda means when grand kids says, be my yoda nan. Disney could not rewrite star wars as they have done with the Marvel. it was always impossible.

    Not saying I hated the new movies or anything... they're all at least fun. But a bit more consistency in the direction of things would have been nice.
    But that's the thing to me, they are not even fun, they are just blah. maybe it goes back to the lack of ignorance that comes with star wars.
    Last edited by Beaddle; 12-22-2019 at 08:26 AM.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post
    I an not people. I am singular person, with my own take in things that are pretty fair and logical. If you think my deslike for rey or Michael is all about race and gender then why do I like Princess Leia and Guinan? and think they are arguably the best characters and if those characters existed now, they could even get their own spin off Web series.

    Also, what link did Igive that has ties to bigots? please can you resend it to me? I don't remember posting links and videos off bigots.



    I have never seen the resident evil movie but Michael is still a Mary sue, but that is not the topic for this thread.



    Luke was floating in lest Jedi, its another bad movie that abuses the force. I don't think he was floating in ESB. Jedi can moves things with their minds, but they have never moved their self in movies. that was why they have ships to fly. they can't levitate themselves to movie around. Rey is basically Magneto at this point.
    No offense, if you can't provide concrete reasons on why you have a problem with a female character beyond her gender , then you really shouldn't have any problem with folks questioning your tolerance or lack thereof. Your criticism of Michael I.e Mary Sue is based solely on her gender, that's sexist. The reason you like Leia and co is probably because they aren't the main protagonists like Rey or Michael.

    Jedi have absolutely moved themselves with the force. They've done that in virtually all the movies. Every single one except A New Hope. They cant levitate themselves to move around and that's never happened in any of the movies except the Emperor levitating the platform in Revenge of the Sith
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  6. #96
    Mighty Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I never said Disney is better. Stuff like God Sith and God Jedi is stuff straight out of the EU and ironically Disney is pulling stuff from the EU for the movies, except it isn't the good parts IMHO.

    Disney's stuff being bad doesn't retroactively make the garbage part of the EU (that Lucas himself discarded) any better. There was some good stuff of legends but a lot of it flat out ridiculous. The irony being that Lucas added in stupid stuff like the Midichlorians.

    Disney will make money from TROS but it's better they let the franchise rest a bit, get a "show runner" to guide themselves on the way forward.
    If you think any force user in the EU was a God then you clearly haven't been paying attention. The point is that force users are people, in a modern mythology writ large. It's personal strength and conversely tragic moral weakness that elevate both the Sith and Jedi to greatness. The lightsabers are perhaps incidental, it's often the journey each character took that decides their fate, long before they meet together in battle.

    Which is why the Disney trilogy fails as a mythology, Disney doesn't understand the Force. Nothing Rey does feels earned, through coincidence and happenstance she acquired the trappings of the OT heroes, even the family name isn't safe. All the while she displays a host of asinine new force powers that seem more like video game cheat codes then anything legitimately learned through study and persiverance.
    Last edited by Kintor; 12-22-2019 at 08:33 AM.

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    There was a rumor this past month that part of the reason Lando was semi-retired is that his daughter was kidnapped by the first order and trained to be a Stormtrooper....and Jannah used to be one....hmmm....

    Either it was just something mixed in with the more factual 'leaks' or maybe Abrams cut it, especially because the movie already had a family twist. Kind of partially explains why they have a brief scene together at the end of the movie.
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  8. #98
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    I don't know how fair this is, but I found it to be an interesting take

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/video...-storytelling/

  9. #99
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    This was pretty bad.

    The scenes with Carrie Fisher at the beginning felt ghoulish. And it also reminded me of that episode of South Park with Chef dying, with no access to the VA so they just used random sound bites vaguely relevant to the situation, except that was done in deliberate parody. she was awkwardly inserted into scenes and people had one sided conversations with her while she offered generic and barely relevant responses ("Never underestimate a droid." "Be optimistic." what the hell?). It honestly would have been less distracting if she had died during the time jump between movies and they devoted a few scenes talking about her.

    Other random thoughts:
    - Palpatine being back because fuck it, why not. It was fun seeing the actor hamming it up again, but nothing makes it more clear how creatively bankrupt the sequels are. And having Rey be his granddaughter undoes the one interesting twist in TLJ.
    - Chewie's "death" and C3PO's memory wipe were complete wastes of time because they undid them soon after. What was even the point of faking Chewie's death so that now we had to waste another half hour rescuing him?
    - Did they have to hold Harrison Ford's family hostage to get him to come back?
    - Rose being shoved into the background seemed like a blatant move by Disney to appeal to the worst people. Not that I was too enamored with her character or what she was used for in TLJ, but I feel bad for the actress if this was the case. Though if she requested a smaller part after the bullshit she had to put up with, I can't say I'd blame her.
    - Ben dying immediately after that stupid kiss was hilarious
    - The f/f kiss. A nice touch by itself, but the cynical part of me just thinks they did the bare minimum of what they could do for representation overall. A quick scene like that for background characters that Disney could easily edit out of releases for other countries. They should have had the balls to go for a Poe/Finn romance because they are the two actors with the most chemistry in the new films. Or even Rey/Finn or Rey/Poe or practically anything besides Rey/Ben.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaddle View Post

    it was poorly written, I cringed when they kissed. I think Reylo had some potential but now it is worse than twilight. worse than anakin and padme.

    the kiss was JJ Abrams making reylo cannon for their fan base, (you get the fan service stuff, critics are hating on) for a second and quickly shutting it out. its the only way to explain the bizarre quick death. Also why didn't rey just heal him again? some words would have helped. that kiss is more of a gag reel, than the actual film
    Actually, the answer to your points here is in the film, but as subtext rather than explicitly stated. The Force healing power has a cost. Rey outright states as much the first time she uses it on the sand worm. She's giving some of her life energy to the creature to heal it. The implication is that this has cost her something down the road. The ultimate in selflessness.

    Which means that healing a mortal wound should be a major problem. Yet we see it happen twice in the film, so what gives? Healing isn't a path to immortality. You can't cheat death. Only share it. Look at the timing. When Rey heals Ben on the Death Star wreckage, Leia has connected with Ben. And then she dies. Leia has given herself so that Rey can heal her son. Rey kills Kylo Ren, Leia sacrifices herself to revive Ben Solo, and then Han shows up to inspire Ben to go and do what he must. I think this is also why Leia doesn't fade into the Force until after Ben dies. In a way she's with her son, metaphysically holding his hand through his rebirth.

    The final scene is the same idea. Ben heals Rey. He uses himself to do it. He loves her, and so he gives his life to restore hers. It's a mirror of Return of the Jedi. There, a Skywalker chose love and destroyed a Palpatine. This time a Skywalker chose love to save one instead. The reason Rey doesn't heal Ben again is because at that point only one of them can live. She accepts the gift he's given her in his final selfless action.

  11. #101
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    The script really doesn't make the character...that's just patently absurd, if that were true every production of Shakespeare would be equal(because they're all using the same scripts) and contrariwise we wouldn't have the saying, "X actor could make a reading of the phone book sound interesting."

    This isn't to belittle the writers, the entertainment wouldn't exist with out them, but it's a visual medium and we make our relationships with these characters and stories not because of the written words but because of the energy and personality of the actors we see on screen.
    Yes it does. Shakespeare's play built the character up, gave them story and personality, the actors' performance is about how the character was delivered. They have their credit but the script is the most important thing.

  12. #102
    Incredible Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    The script is not most important thing. It won't mean a thing without the actor breathing life into it. The VA add the tone, the nuisances, the weight. Words on a sheet of paper can't do that.
    The actor deliver it, but the character was built up by the script.

    Like Shakespeare's play built up the character, the actor's performance decide how well it was being delivered.

  13. #103
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    Overall good movie, a solid 8 out of 10. Definitely redeemed itself after the crapfest of Last Jedi.

    Also did a happy dance that my theory going all the way back to Force Awakens was proven correct in that Rey was a descendant of Palpatine. I knew it had to be granddaughter if done naturally due to ages but thought they might have used cloning / impregnation technology to make her a daughter. There were hints of it all the way back in Force Awakens in how Rey had a fighting style lifted directly from Palpatine in the prequel trilogy. I just knew she had to be a Palpatine some way or another.

    My only quibbles were two things at the end: 1) Chewies medal, after all this time it was dumb to do this for fan service reasons, 2) Rey and where she buried the lightsabers and took the name Skywalker. Rey's main mentor was Leia and she has never even been to Luke's old farm. And Leia was never a Skywalker. For fan service reasons it made sense but it would have been more realistic if she buried the sabers where she trained with Leia and then either taken the name Organa or Solo after Leia.

    Still though an overall good movie that did a lot to fix the character assassination done on Poe in Last Jedi and the wasted filler storyline that Finn got in Last Jedi.

  14. #104
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    The actor deliver it, but the character was built up by the script.

    Like Shakespeare's play built up the character, the actor's performance decide how well it was being delivered.
    Hard disagree. This doesn't take into account what the actor and director does. What do you said in the cases where the actor improvises a line or scripts that completely leave things to an actor and/or director discretion how things play out? Would you still give all the credit to the script when basically serves as in outline? There's a reason it's a bigger deal for an actor to be replaced than a writer.

  15. #105
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    All the Skywalker's are dead and a freaking Palpatine is the last one Scandia, and co-ops their name. Thanks a lot LF, ugh.

    Also apparently Sheev just could build a GIGANTIC fleet of warships, completely with Death Star weaponry, on some barren backwater planet with no infrastructure, factories, natural resources, etc. It was so contrived.

    Also ANOTHER big super-weapon threat, enough of that already.

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