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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    If you think any force user in the EU was a God then you clearly haven't been paying attention. The point is that force users are people, in a modern mythology writ large. It's personal strength and conversely tragic moral weakness that elevate both the Sith and Jedi to greatness. The lightsabers are perhaps incidental, it's often the journey each character took that decides their fate, long before they meet together in battle.

    Which is why the Disney trilogy fails as a mythology, Disney doesn't understand the Force. Nothing Rey does feels earned, through coincidence and happenstance she acquired the trappings of the OT heroes, even the family name isn't safe. All the while she displays a host of asinine new force powers that seem more like video game cheat codes then anything legitimately learned through study and persiverance.
    I guess you're not that well versed in the EU or else you would have heard of Darth Nihilus. Luke himself has destroyed a star destroyer in the EU. That's before we talk about the likes of Abeloth.

    Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're trying to argue against here considering I've been very critical of the sequel trilogy and hate what they did to the Skywalkers. My earlier posts were very clear on that.

    You're arguing against a point I'm not even making

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    All the Skywalker's are dead and a freaking Palpatine is the last one Scandia, and co-ops their name. Thanks a lot LF, ugh.

    Also apparently Sheev just could build a GIGANTIC fleet of warships, completely with Death Star weaponry, on some barren backwater planet with no infrastructure, factories, natural resources, etc. It was so contrived.

    Also ANOTHER big super-weapon threat, enough of that already.
    The fleet of planet killing star destroyers are probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in a Star Wars movie.

    Like, how did the Emperor put together an army of that magnitude in secret, it doesn't make any sense at all.

  3. #108
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    Hard disagree. This doesn't take into account what the actor and director does. What do you said in the cases where the actor improvises a line or scripts that completely leave things to an actor and/or director discretion how things play out? Would you still give all the credit to the script when basically serves as in outline? There's a reason it's a bigger deal for an actor to be replaced than a writer.
    Yes it happens sometimes, but overall the script make the character and the actor present it. I didn't give all the credit to the script.

    The movie actors wasn't given the chance to do so because the script as well, not like they couldn't do well. PT Mon Mothma's performance was wonderful compare to TCW VA.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The fleet of planet killing star destroyers are probably the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in a Star Wars movie.

    Like, how did the Emperor put together an army of that magnitude in secret, it doesn't make any sense at all.
    Also so there's two massive bad guy fleets, his and the FO? And they were both built in only thirty years. WTF?

    But honestly Sheev feels so shoehorned in here and is used so poorly that perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Also so there's two massive bad guy fleets, his and the FO? And they were both built in only thirty years. WTF?

    But honestly Sheev feels so shoehorned in here and is used so poorly that perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
    As opposed to the massive Republic fleet from the Clone Wars, which was built in 10 years or less?

  6. #111
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Also so there's two massive bad guy fleets, his and the FO? And they were both built in only thirty years. WTF?

    But honestly Sheev feels so shoehorned in here and is used so poorly that perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
    I think (most of) these (Palp's fleet) were preexisting Star Destroyers that went "missing" (this is touched upon in the comics and the novel "Empire's End") and later retrofitted with Death Star tech. Mind you, this should have been explained more clearly during the movie. JJ is notoriously bad at explaining things in his movies/series.
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  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    As opposed to the massive Republic fleet from the Clone Wars, which was built in 10 years or less?
    You mean the massive New Republic that spanned the entire Galaxy. And Sheev had been laying the groundwork for years beforehand. Yeah a lot easier to buy there than here.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    Okay, just having rewatched TFA-

    Rey said she never flew the Falcon before. I don't recall her ever saying she never flew at all. I know she stayed on the planet, but it felt like she had some piloting skills- probably from her speeder. Kind of like how Anakin could suddenly fly a starfighter after only ever having piloted Podracers in Episode I.

    Her innate use of the Force- again, Anakin did the same things to a degree in Episode I. He used the Force for Podracing. As for Rey's ability to use all of those abilities- well, I chalk that up to her being Poppa Palpatine's Granddaughter. Of course she'll be strong in the Force, and of course she'll start using abilities that she never had before.

    Rey beating Kylo... sigh. Kylo had just killed his father, and then had been shot in the side. He was wounded and distracted. Also, Finn got a shot in on him first before Rey got the lightsaber.

    And Rey did make mistakes, just not many of them. She did let loose the Rathtars on Han's ship.. but yeah, that seems to be the only real mistake I can think of in the first movie.
    Heh. You followed up better than I ever could. 
    I just wanted to add to what I said before. Rey has been fending for herself since she was abandoned as a child of 10. If memory serves she’s 19 or 20 at the start of the Force Awakens. That would be 10 years of being out on her own. Having to do whatever it takes to survive on a very, very harsh desert planet where no would literally care for her.

    That’s a long lengthy time to learn and harden not only survival skills (whether that be hunting or combat) not to mention develop mental toughness, resilience and maturity.
    The story introduces her as a scavenger of ship parts. It’s not unexpected that in all that time she probably would have done some inspection of ships to see how they work, and to figure out what parts are valuable to sell etc. So the notion that she can do anything (ie. Acquired skills out of thin air) is just nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Anyway, I enjoyed the movie but opinions are all over the place.

    Star Wars is a funny thing, peoples opinions on them change over time. The biggest mistake Disney made was:

    1. Don’t always listen to what audiences say. The sequel trilogy was made with the mindset that they were going to move as far away from the prequels as possible because of the complaints. When they did this, people screamed it wasn’t Star Wars. They then course corrected and made Rise of Skywalker as a direct response to the divisiveness of the Last Jedi. That isn’t how to do it, for good or for bad, The Last Jedi has moved things in an entirely different direction, Lucasfilm should have continued on that path. I hated the Last Jedi but I also don’t want to be pandered to.
    And again I don’t get this. I don’t see ROS as a course correction to TLJ. Sure it’s not as cerebral and nuanced as TLJ. And there’s more action on screen. But it’s still a highly intelligent and engrossing film. Given the complaints (which I am guessing is from a minority or else we would not have gotten ROS) I honestly thought that the film would be boring and only suitable for 15 year old boys. But it wasn’t. I am actually trying to think of the last film that I was so emotionally and intellectually involved in and I honestly have to say that it probably was the Last Jedi. I’ve seen other enjoyable films since, but nothing that has stayed on my mind this much. I’ve seen it twice already and probably will see it several more times.

    For ROS to be a course correction to TLJ it would just have to be action orientated like the original three, Rogue One and TFA. Essentially it would just revert to being a western set in space or a lazy paint by numbers scifi version of the French Resistance taking on the Nazi’s. It’s why I have never been able to cotton on to Star Wars and prefer Star Trek .


    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    3. The characters were kind of wasted. There was rich story telling potential with a force sensitive storm trooper that moved to the light and the grand daughter of Palpatine being trained by Jedi Masters (if that was the original story) but The Last Jedi pretty much threw all that away and had Finn carry out a meaningless and pointless quest and Rey just seemed confused for majority of the movies because so much about her was kept a mystery until TROS. The characters weren’t allowed to grow organically and it hurt the story IMO. Yes, Rey is a Palpatine and got what looked like full training but she was still overpowered, she was basically god mode at the end (I guess the “I am all the Jedi was somehow literal).
    I don’t see how you can say this. There was a plenty of character growth in the films.

    Poe went from an impulsive fly by the seat of his pants, I- come- before-anyone else ‘down with the man’. To someone who is more measured and relies on team work and has a duty and responsibility to help those under his care. I loved it in how ROS he asked Poe to reign him in if he got off course. It’s about the mission not his ego.

    Finn went from a beaten down boy who was used as cannon fodder, to little more than a side kick to the protagonist. To a hero in his own right, using his skills and knowledge

    And Rey, where to begin? She’s your quintessential a broken girl who learned to put herself back together. She was strong to begin with but the character growth in the last 3 films has been amazing. She went from a plucky brave girl who did what she had to survive, to a powerful woman ready to serve and lead.

    And what more the growth isn’t superficial. Her battle wasn’t about learning new combat skills and becoming a Jedi. It was about dropping the preconceived notions/and issues she had of being abandoned (ie rejected) as a child. To forming her own identity and making her own choices. It would have been an interesting choice for her to have taken her families legacy, taken over the Sith and made them change direction.

    Kylo- changed from an angry resentful man who turned to the dark side because of insecurity of not measuring up to his parents and his own form of abandonment. To seeing that his choice really was a false one. Dying a hero. His arc was probably the weakest of the 4 but its still there.

    I am not a SW fan and I honestly would have preferred if the makers had brought on a new type of villain not just recycle the ones from the first trilogy. But after the backlash of the Phantom Menace received in trying to introduce politics they didn't want to go down that road. Which is is a shame.

    But even in the ROS the First Order seemed to have changed from a bunch of pseudo Nazi thugs. To a nationalistic military order on par with China or the Soviet Union or even Imperial Britain or Japan set on world domination. It was a great touch using women as storm troopers and commanding officers. It gave more rhyme and reason to their actions. Than just wanting to ‘destroy things’.
    Last edited by Mia; 12-22-2019 at 11:39 AM.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    I think (most of) these (Palp's fleet) were preexisting Star Destroyers that went "missing" (this is touched upon in the comics and the novel "Empire's End") and later retrofitted with Death Star tech. Mind you, this should have been explained more clearly during the movie. JJ is notoriously bad at explaining things in his movies/series.
    It's not just JJ, Rian did a terrible job of properly explaining things either. That's a huge failing of all of these films.

  10. #115
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    It's not just JJ, Rian did a terrible job of properly explaining things either. That's a huge failing of all of these films.
    Yup, one must make a lot of assumptions for these films to work.
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  11. #116
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    I have a lot of mixed feelings regarding the movie. If they didn't feel it necessary to "fix" TLJ and just focused on the little plot that was present, it might have been much better.

    Then again, I'm one of the foolish Star Wars fans who actually really liked TLJ, as I'm not tied to preconceived notions of what the characters should be.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    You mean the massive New Republic that spanned the entire Galaxy. And Sheev had been laying the groundwork for years beforehand. Yeah a lot easier to buy there than here.
    If he masterminded one fleet, behind the scenes of the Republic where he had to manipulate, cajole and bribe, how can you have a problem with him building another one after he was the nearly unquestioned absolute monarch of the entire galaxy for nearly 20 years? He could have stashed resources like a crazed squirrel if he wanted to. Or, as you put it, laid the groundwork for years beforehand. I just don't see how it's easier to buy one, when the second is literally the exact same model only newer.

    You're making a leap out of pure reactionary hate, without any logic. And actually arguing against your own point.

    I have serious problems with Palpatine's return, personally. But the fleet isn't one of them. That's par for the course by this point.

  13. #118
    Astonishing Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    I have serious problems with Palpatine's return, personally. But the fleet isn't one of them. That's par for the course by this point.
    Palpatine's return was a direct response to how likeable Kylo Ren was and their inability to go full-on dark side with the character following TLJ. He had to be redeemed but since he killed Snoke to (seemingly) become the new emperor, the only way to make him likeable again was to bring the one character back that's completely irredeemable.

  14. #119
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Yeah the Republic army was pretty much built in secret, along with it's cruisers and Walkers, on Kamino.

    Although it's kind of lost in the movie's plot, the Republic was getting ready for war regardless with a military creation act as it had no real army of it's own except the Jedi. That's why Padme flew to Coruscant, to oppose it. Then a fully trained army and navy pops up out of the blue.

    Exegol did seem to have a fairly big population of cultists although it's unclear if they built the destroyers or served as it's crew. We see troopers and officers in new redder uniforms at the end of the movie but it's possible they're just transferred from the first order like Pryde.


    I think part of the reason they're older Star Destroyers is that someone at Disney/Lucasfilm really has a fondness for the original Star Wars: A New Hope version of the destroyer with the different tower. It's in their first major production (Rebels) the spin-off films, the latest Lego set is it etc. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them showed up in Mandalorian at this point. Heck, they even brought the exact same Tantive IV back.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 12-22-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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  15. #120
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Another problem with the Star Destroyer tech is where did they get all the Kyber crystals they would need? Oh, and how did they miniaturize the tech so it could fit on Star Destroyers yet still have the power required to destroy planets? None of this was explained.
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