Earth 1985 - what would you like to see?

[superduperman]

Hmm… maybe he finally gets it?

Nah… couldn't be.

Johns certainly seems to be more on the ball than his colleagues on this. I've been waiting for something like an Earth 1985 for 20 years now. I'm surprised it took them this long to find some way to bring back the pre-Crisis universe in some form.

[bat39]

Johns certainly seems to be more on the ball than his colleagues on this. I've been waiting for something like an Earth 1985 for 20 years now. I'm surprised it took them this long to find some way to bring back the pre-Crisis universe in some form.

Well...the process of bringing it back began in earnest around 15 years ago with IC. For the longest time, they tried to have a 'best of both worlds' approach. But now enough time has passed such that the Post-Crisis DCU has become 'classic' in its own right.

I mean, lets face it. If you consider the popular perceptions of the DCU right now, nearly all of them are inspired by the Post-Crisis era. The movies. The cartoons. The TV shows. The video games. Everything.

Sure, you have stuff like the 60's Batman show, the Donner Superman films, Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman show etc. (maybe add the Max Fleischer Superman shorts to the list) which continue to remain iconic and have stood the test of time. But with the exception of Donner's Superman, none of them really influence the contemporary versions of the characters and their brands any more (and even Donner Superman's influence is perhaps starting to wane a bit).

The Pre-Crisis DCU has nostalgia value for much older fans no doubt. But I think the real value of such an earth now is as a kind of retro-AU take on the characters that even modern fans can enjoy. Kinda like how a lot of fans of BTAS or the Nolan Batman movies have discovered and found a certain appeal in the Adam West show.

[superduperman]

Well...the process of bringing it back began in earnest around 15 years ago with IC. For the longest time, they tried to have a 'best of both worlds' approach. But now enough time has passed such that the Post-Crisis DCU has become 'classic' in its own right.

I mean, lets face it. If you consider the popular perceptions of the DCU right now, nearly all of them are inspired by the Post-Crisis era. The movies. The cartoons. The TV shows. The video games. Everything.

Sure, you have stuff like the 60's Batman show, the Donner Superman films, Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman show etc. (maybe add the Max Fleischer Superman shorts to the list) which continue to remain iconic and have stood the test of time. But with the exception of Donner's Superman, none of them really influence the contemporary versions of the characters and their brands any more (and even Donner Superman's influence is perhaps starting to wane a bit).

The Pre-Crisis DCU has nostalgia value for much older fans no doubt. But I think the real value of such an earth now is as a kind of retro-AU take on the characters that even modern fans can enjoy. Kinda like how a lot of fans of BTAS or the Nolan Batman movies have discovered and found a certain appeal in the Adam West show.

I think it helps that the post-Crisis era was also their most successful financially. There's a lot of incentive to recreate that success. I've said on the Superman thread that I think a lot of what Bendis is doing right now is to more or less get back to the post-Crisis era like sending Jon into the future to get him out of the way. And more of a focus on things like the day to day goings on at the Planet. Return to a late 90s approach. And, yeah, enough time has passed that the pre-Crisis era is kind of considered a "retro" era now. They couldn't have done something like that ten years ago. Certainly not 20 years ago. The pre-Crisis Earth 1 was always the third rail of comics. Never openly return to it. I think enough time has passed that they can do that now. I kind of wonder if something like TAS will be the basis ten years from now. Just following the timeline.

[wickedmountain]

Hmm… maybe he finally gets it?

Nah… couldn't be.

Well I hope he does at least some of it , I just found that quote interesting from him.

[Zaku]

What would I like?

That pre-Crisis Superman FINALLY justifies all the horrible things he did.

Like the time he thought it was a good idea to spank an adult woman against her will, or when he abandoned his cousin (a teen girl who had just lost her family and had just arrived in unknown world) in an orphanage literally MINUTES after he had just met her, or when he date raped a poor girl. (remember, all these things were in continuity until Byrne reboot)

Really, every new author would be excited to write his/her version of Avengers Annual #10 (where Claremont had to painful explain that's is NOT OK to leave a raped woman in the hands of her rapist, while smiling and waving). But, unlike Claremont, they would have DECADES of similar stories at their disposal...

Yes, I know, It was the Silver Age, it was a different time etc, still, like I said, every. One. Of. These. Stories was in continuity until the last moment before the reboot.

[wonder39]

Random point of clarification . Earth 1 Steve and Diana were wed. They showed the ceremony in her comic. It was short livedvduebto the events of coie.

[superduperman]

What would I like?

That pre-Crisis Superman FINALLY justifies all the horrible things he did.

Like the time he thought it was a good idea to spank an adult woman against her will, or when he abandoned his cousin (a teen girl who had just lost her family and had just arrived in unknown world) in an orphanage literally MINUTES after he had just met her, or when he date raped a poor girl. (remember, all these things were in continuity until Byrne reboot)

Really, every new author would be excited to write his/her version of Avengers Annual #10 (where Claremont had to painful explain that's is NOT OK to leave a raped woman in the hands of her rapist, while smiling and waving). But, unlike Claremont, they would have DECADES of similar stories at their disposal...

Yes, I know, It was the Silver Age, it was a different time etc, still, like I said, every. One. Of. These. Stories was in continuity until the last moment before the reboot.

When we're talking about the pre-Crisis universe, "continuity" is a very loose term. I doubt both Superboy and Superman could have met JFK for instance. I think the rule should be that unless it's referenced more than once, you can safely discard it.

[bat39]

When we're talking about the pre-Crisis universe, "continuity" is a very loose term. I doubt both Superboy and Superman could have met JFK for instance. I think the rule should be that unless it's referenced more than once, you can safely discard it.

That's where the whole 'Earth 1970' discussion we're having on another thread comes in.

On a hypothetical Earth 1970, Superman first shows up in 1956 and could thus have met JFK before the assassination.

On Earth 1985 however, Clark would have first become Superboy sometime in the early 1960's perhaps, and so could have met JFK as Superboy.

[Zaku]

When we're talking about the pre-Crisis universe, "continuity" is a very loose term. I doubt both Superboy and Superman could have met JFK for instance. I think the rule should be that unless it's referenced more than once, you can safely discard it.

There are things so deeply rooted in Superman's myth (like when he abandoned his cousin just after she had arrived) that I think we can't simply ignore.

And yes, the spanking was referenced, like in DC Special Series #26

And the date rape was part of the "super teacher from Krypton saga" and it happened during the Bronze Age, when continuity was more tight.

Another point of clarification: in the two years before the crisis, after Superman had broken up with Lois Lane, Clark Kent began a serious relationship with Lana Lang.

I doubt that anyone remembers this, because, really, who the heck was reading Superman during that period?

[superduperman]

There are things so deeply rooted in Superman's myth (like when he abandoned his cousin just after she had arrived) that I think we can't simply ignore.

And yes, the spanking was referenced, like in DC Special Series #26

And the date rape was part of the "super teacher from Krypton saga" and it happened during the Bronze Age, when continuity was more tight.

Another point of clarification: in the two years before the crisis, after Superman had broken up with Lois Lane, Clark Kent began a serious relationship with Lana Lang.

I doubt that anyone remembers this, because, really, who the heck was reading Superman during that period?

I've read the "Super Teacher from Krypton" and my recollection was that he had no idea she was brainwashed. It was the teacher's doing. And, yes, that was problematic. As for stuff like Superman spanking Lois for some SA reason, I think stories like that are much looser in terms of whether or not they "count". Part of the reason for the reboot was stuff like this. No one could figure out what counted and what didn't. I'm not saying these stories aren't problematic, they are, what I'm saying is, we don't know what they consider canon at this point and what isn't. Most references that I've seen to the pre-Crisis Superboy in things like Encyclopedias says he started his career at age eight. But a story from as late as 1984 shows him becoming Superboy in his teens. I don't think they gave it as much thought as we do today.

Of course if they don't do anything with this world, it becomes a moot point and you can count whatever you want.

[Thor-Ul]

Remember than a lot of issues from the Silver age were re-printed in the bronze age.

Should those stories be considered part of the Bronze age or are they part of the Silver age?

[Dataweaver]

Both, albeit with a timeline shift.

[wonder39]

Remember than a lot of issues from the Silver age were re-printed in the bronze age.

Should those stories be considered part of the Bronze age or are they part of the Silver age?

I look at them from the same Earth, since the Silver and Bronze Age both reflected Earth one

[manwhohaseverything]

I've read the "Super Teacher from Krypton" and my recollection was that he had no idea she was brainwashed. It was the teacher's doing. And, yes, that was problematic. As for stuff like Superman spanking Lois for some SA reason, I think stories like that are much looser in terms of whether or not they "count". Part of the reason for the reboot was stuff like this. No one could figure out what counted and what didn't. I'm not saying these stories aren't problematic, they are, what I'm saying is, we don't know what they consider canon at this point and what isn't. Most references that I've seen to the pre-Crisis Superboy in things like Encyclopedias says he started his career at age eight. But a story from as late as 1984 shows him becoming Superboy in his teens. I don't think they gave it as much thought as we do today.

Of course if they don't do anything with this world, it becomes a moot point and you can count whatever you want.

The story specifically says so, clark was taken advantage of and clark has to live with it.

As for leaving kara in an orphanage. That version of Clark is not good with family due to being an orphan.Spanking thing no comments. But, hey! Problematic stuff are always happening. Don't forget how clark and bigbarda almost had pornshoot.

[Zaku]

The story specifically says so, clark was taken advantage of and clark has to live with it.

The problem is that Kal was supposed to turn the robot into a hunk of junk and feel like a monster because he had had sex with a girl without his consent, not just shrug his shoulders and say "oh well, too bad".

If I had gone to bed with a woman under the effect of Roipnol without knowing it, after discovering it I would not just think "No problem, I didn't know this", but I would feel awful and try bring the culprit to justice. And even if we want to ignore the date rape thing (your typical 70's white dude dc staffer "Ehi, The women mean yes even if the say no, right?") , the robot had kidnapped her. And Superboy hasn't blinked at all. The real victim in this story was the poor girl but the authors made the whole thing a bizarre rite of passage for Superboy.

But my point it isn't nitpicking if this or that particular story was in continuity (to me they are all unless they have been explicitly contradicted - like when Superboy found his real parents hibernated in the space).

My point is that the pre-Crisis Superman was an horrible person that would be quite problematic for a modern author. Like is relationship with Lois Lane. In order to hide his true identity from her, he lied to her, deceived her, made her doubt her sanity, humiliated her, gaslighted her, all while he kept telling her that he loved her. Meanwhile, every d-listener in the Justice League knew his true identity. This is a toxic relationship straight from a text book.

Or his relationship with Steve Lombard, when Clark was the subject of his pranks.

As an adult, seeing someone in a corporate environment pulling pranks on a timid coworker who apparently will never fight back or complain is simply infuriating. You are paid to work, not to be a clown. Really, what he was doing is close to mobbing.

As a kid, what is exactly the message here? You can defend yourself from bullies only if you are Superman? If someone pull a prank on you, give him a concussion?

As a reader, seeing the supposedly noblest hero on earth engaging in some kind of prank-arms race is frustrating.

These are the ways one of the most intelligent man on earth should react:

• Simply, confront him, explaining that no one is laughing at his pranks, some of which are also dangerous to others.
  
• if this don't work, report him to HR because a person like this can create a toxic workplace
  
• Just endure his pranks. You are Superman. You can survive inside a nova. So you can survive to a water bucket. If you have chosen the facade of an amoeba unable to react, well, live with the consequences of this choice. And really, what is the rationale behind this choice? "Oh, Clark has grown a spine, this means that... HE'S SUPERMAN!!!". Come on....

The worst thing you can do is pulling pranks back, because it's absolutely USELESS.

And his colleagues are equally infuriating. They see someone mistreating a co-worker who apparently can't react and they do absolutely NOTHING, except some unconvincing mild criticism like "Oh Steve, sometimes you are so childish...".

And, by the way, why Perry White & Co. call Superman their "friend"? In every interaction that I read in these issues Superman treats them with a mix of paternalism, arrogance and a little bit of annoyance. And, except when he is saving their lives, it's not like he hangs out with them in their spare time or similar. "Perry, are you ok? Now I have to go, there is an earthquake in China". They are friends only because the writers said so. The only in-universe explanation is that if a man who could move planets says you are his friend, well, it's better you humor him.

I know that their friendship is a Silver age legacy, but that was even more inexplicable then, because, well,

As for leaving kara in an orphanage. That version of Clark is not good with family due to being an orphan.Spanking thing no comments. But, hey! Problematic stuff are always happening. Don't forget how clark and bigbarda almost had pornshoot.

Clark grew up with loving foster parents from an early age. He should be the first to know what to do with someone who has lost his natural parents. And he was mindcontrolled during the "almost pornoshot". And it wasn't depicted as a good thing.