Earth 1985 - what would you like to see?

[Dataweaver]

We'd have Earth 1, Earth 2 and Earth 345 (for lack of a better name). Less cluttered.

I'm with Mr.B this far: don't merge Earths.

[Mr.B]

They already have similar counterparts in the 52 multiverse.

The metaverse doesn't preserve non Superman Earths. Nor does it preserve redundant Earths like birthright.

[Dataweaver]

They already have similar counterparts in the 52 multiverse.

The metaverse doesn't preserve non Superman Earths. Nor does it preserve redundant Earths like birthright.

Where did Birthright come in? (And frankly, Birthright is exactly the sort of thing that the Metaverse preserves: each time Superman's origin is updated, you get a new Earth featuring The old origin. If that's not Birthright, I don't know what is.)

Frankly, your arguments are sounding an awful lot like “preserve the things that I like, and ditch the rest”. That runs counter to the spirit of Johns' Metaverse.

[scary harpy]

I'm with Mr.B this far: don't merge Earths.

They already have similar counterparts in the 52 multiverse.

The metaverse doesn't preserve non Superman Earths. Nor does it preserve redundant Earths like birthright.

okay.

you both win. No merged earths.

Remember on Earth 1985 there is no:

Blue Beetle (Dan Garrett)
Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
Captain Atom
Judomaster
Nightshade
Peacemaker
The Question
Thunderbolt
Sarge Steel
Son of Vulcan

Shazam the Wizard
Marvel Family

• Captain Marvel
• Mary Marvel
• Captain Marvel, Jr.
• Lieutenant Marvels
  
  • Fat Marvel
  • Hill Marvel
  • Tall Marvel
  
  

The Squadron of Justice

• Spy Smasher
• Bulletman
• Bulletgirl
• Ibis the Invincible
• Mister Scarlet
• Pinky

Commando Yank
Devil's Dagger
Golden Arrow
Kid Eternity
Lance O'Casey
Minute-Man
Phantom Eagle

The Crime Syndicate of America

• Ultraman
• Super-Woman
• Johnny Quick
• Power Ring
• Owlman

Alexander Luthor, Sr.
Lois Lane-Luthor
Alexander Luthor, Jr.

Unless new characters take these names.

P.S. I forgot the Quality characters. So add Uncle Sam and his Freedom Fighters too.

[Jon Clark]

Where did Birthright come in? (And frankly, Birthright is exactly the sort of thing that the Metaverse preserves: each time Superman's origin is updated, you get a new Earth featuring The old origin. If that's not Birthright, I don't know what is.)

Frankly, your arguments are sounding an awful lot like “preserve the things that I like, and ditch the rest”. That runs counter to the spirit of Johns' Metaverse.

I think the problem is that everything is already preserved … somewhere. If tomorrow DC wanted to publish a story set in a world where Superman and Luthor were raised as brothers, then there is an Earth where that "Imaginary" Tale happened. The real question is whether or not DC ever plans to visit such a place.

So there is an Earth where Crisis never happened, one where Crisis happened but history didn't get re-written, one where the heroes who travelled back to the Dawn of Time in Crisis simply never returned, and so on. The only difference is which version DC refers to as Earth-1985 for the stories it tells.

[Dataweaver]

I think the problem is that everything is already preserved … somewhere. If tomorrow DC wanted to publish a story set in a world where Superman and Luthor were raised as brothers, then there is an Earth where that "Imaginary" Tale happened. The real question is whether or not DC ever plans to visit such a place.

So there is an Earth where Crisis never happened, one where Crisis happened but history didn't get re-written, one where the heroes who travelled back to the Dawn of Time in Crisis simply never returned, and so on. The only difference is which version DC refers to as Earth-1985 for the stories it tells.

That much is true. But there is a bit more to it than that. If Earth 1985 has a history of interacting with other Earths, does that history extend beyond 1985? If not, how do they explain the disappearance of the other Earths? Do they still allow time travel? If so, what happens if someone travels back to before the other Earth's disappeared and tries to visit them?

[dswynne]

Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985
Earth-2 becomes Earth-1961 ("1961") is the year of "Earth-2" was first introduced. Or, "Earth-1938", the start of the Golden Age.
Earth-S becomes Earth-1939 (when Captain Marvel makes his first appearance).

Yes, no...?

[dswynne]

ALL the Earths are preserved and archived. In some instances, there is a Superman on a merged Earth. In other cases, this is not the case. Earth-1985 is a non-merged Earth; Earth-1991 is a merged Earth. Nothings changed, and yet everything keeps changing, but Superman is the center of it all, in which the Metaverse responds to. Hell, if DC wanted, they could reboot everything to have it that ONLY Superman is the sole hero of an Earth, and have it that each member of the "Big Seven" are the sole heroes of an Earth, assisted by their respective "families", but only get together when their worlds are in danger. But those previous iterations are still valid, but "archived".

[Jon Clark]

That much is true. But there is a bit more to it than that. If Earth 1985 has a history of interacting with other Earths, does that history extend beyond 1985? If not, how do they explain the disappearance of the other Earths? Do they still allow time travel? If so, what happens if someone travels back to before the other Earth's disappeared and tries to visit them?

Basically that is up to the writer. My point is that Earth-1985 is a name DC is using for a world that they are focusing on. But technically there can be dozens of variations on it- all of which are equally "valid".

It could be Earth-1985 is like the first Post-Crisis DCU where everyone remembers Kara Zor-El's death, the JSA and JLA always existing on the same world, and Lex Luthor as a criminal not a businessman. In this case it never had parallel worlds but JLA/JSA crossovers may have occurred similar to those shown in the Silver Age books. This was a different world from the one Byrne's Superman existed in (we were always told it was due to the impact of Crisis not occurring all at once, but who knows)

It could be that Earth-1985 is identical to Silver Age Earth-1 but is cut-off from contacting its counterparts to Earth 2/S/X since the end of it's Crisis (including time-travelling back to any point the parallel worlds interacted). But even here nothing prevents a later writer from "moving the camera" to show us a version of Earth-1985 that has the ability to reach its Earth-2 (or even its Earth-2 being the same as the Golden Age Superman world Dr Manhattan witnessed in discovering the Metaverse).

Far as I can tell BOTH the above exist along with a gazillion variations that DC won't show us ever. All Doomsday Clock did was give DC a platform to show some of the Metaverse that they have been ignoring while they were limiting their view to only 52 tiny specks at a time the last decade or so.

[Dataweaver]

Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985
Earth-2 becomes Earth-1961 ("1961") is the year of "Earth-2" was first introduced. Or, "Earth-1938", the start of the Golden Age.
Earth-S becomes Earth-1939 (when Captain Marvel makes his first appearance).

Yes, no...?

I guess.

They're just names. Earth 1 got called “Earth 1” because its inhabitants those to call it that once another Earth was discovered. They're not going to start calling their world Earth 1985 all of the sudden.

[Dataweaver]

Basically that is up to the writer. My point is that Earth-1985 is a name DC is using for a world that they are focusing on. But technically there can be dozens of variations on it- all of which are equally "valid".

It could be Earth-1985 is like the first Post-Crisis DCU where everyone remembers Kara Zor-El's death, the JSA and JLA always existing on the same world, and Lex Luthor as a criminal not a businessman. In this case it never had parallel worlds but JLA/JSA crossovers may have occurred similar to those shown in the Silver Age books.

It could be that Earth-1985 is identical to Silver Age Earth-1 but is cut-off from contacting it's counterparts to Earth 2/S/X since the end of it's Crisis (including time-travelling back to any point the parallel worlds interacted). But even here nothing prevents a later writer from "moving the camera" to show us a version of Earth-1985 that has the ability to reach it's Earth-2 (or even it's Earth-2 being the same as the Golden Age Superman world Dr Manhattan witnessed in discovering the Metaverse).

Far as I can tell BOTH the above exist along with a gazillion variations that DC won't show us ever. All Doomsday Clock did was give DC a platform to show some of the Metaverse that they have been ignoring while they were limiting their view to only 52 tiny specks at a time the last decade or so.

I'll agree with your main point while nitpicking the details. One such detail is that we have a picture of some of the heroes of Earth 1985; and they include Supergirl and the Flash. Now, it's vaguely possible that that's Wally in the picture, not Barry; with the cowl, there's no way to be absolutely certain. But I'm pretty sure that the intent was that it's Barry. Given all of that, Earth 1985 isn't an Earth where Supergirl and the Flash are dead.

The other point I'd like to make is that this thread is “Earth 1985 - What would you like to see?”, not “1985: what will DC do with it?”

I posted what I'd like to see: an Earth that keeps as much of the pre-Crisis DCU in play as possible (including the vast majority of the Crisis itself), but stops short of merging the Infinite Earths into one. The fact that the heroes at the end of Convergence just happen to include the two highest-profile fatalities of the Crisis opens an interesting door, to let them die on Earth 1985 but bring them back at the end of the Crisis the same way the pre-Flashpoint Superman ended up migrating to the New 52 Earth by way of Convergence. The only other changes I'd make would be along the lines of not killing off or sidelining heroes in the Crisis who originally got killed off or sidelined because they didn't fit into the merged Earth's history (most notably the Earth 2 Superman, Wonder Woman, Robin, and Huntress). If the Earths aren't merged, they're not redundant.

[docmidnite]

Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985
Earth-2 becomes Earth-1961 ("1961") is the year of "Earth-2" was first introduced. Or, "Earth-1938", the start of the Golden Age.
Earth-S becomes Earth-1939 (when Captain Marvel makes his first appearance).

Yes, no...?

Bingo. You got it.

[dswynne]

I'll agree with your main point while nitpicking the details. One such detail is that we have a picture of some of the heroes of Earth 1985; and they include Supergirl and the Flash. Now, it's vaguely possible that that's Wally in the picture, not Barry; with the cowl, there's no way to be absolutely certain. But I'm pretty sure that the intent was that it's Barry. Given all of that, Earth 1985 isn't an Earth where Supergirl and the Flash are dead.

The other point I'd like to make is that this thread is “Earth 1985 - What would you like to see?”, not “1985: what will DC do with it?”

I posted what I'd like to see: an Earth that keeps as much of the pre-Crisis DCU in play as possible (including the vast majority of the Crisis itself), but stops short of merging the Infinite Earths into one. The fact that the heroes at the end of Convergence just happen to include the two highest-profile fatalities of the Crisis opens an interesting door, to let them die on Earth 1985 but bring them back at the end of the Crisis the same way the pre-Flashpoint Superman ended up migrating to the New 52 Earth by way of Convergence. The only other changes I'd make would be along the lines of not killing off or sidelining heroes in the Crisis who originally got killed off or sidelined because they didn't fit into the merged Earth's history (most notably the Earth 2 Superman, Wonder Woman, Robin, and Huntress). If the Earths aren't merged, they're not redundant.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of unknowns as to the status of this Earth, as far as its relationship ship to inter-dimensional travel. It could be that "Earth-1985" might not have had a "Tale of Two Flashes" story, thus opening up that Earth to another Earth variant. That's what this discussion is all about.

But, as to your original question: "Earth-1985" should remain as preserved as possible, pertaining to the writing, art and editorial style of the DC comics of 1985. Moving beyond that risks the point of having an archived version of the pre-Crisis "Earth-1", imo. If that is not good enough, then there is always "Earth-1991" (Armageddon 2001), "Earth-1994" (Zero-Hour) and so on, if you want to see any significant progression of the characters...or not.

[docmidnite]

Unfortunately, there are a lot of unknowns as to the status of this Earth, as far as its relationship ship to inter-dimensional travel. It could be that "Earth-1985" might not have had a "Tale of Two Flashes" story, thus opening up that Earth to another Earth variant. That's what this discussion is all about.

But, as to your original question: "Earth-1985" should remain as preserved as possible, pertaining to the writing, art and editorial style of the DC comics of 1985. Moving beyond that risks the point of having an archived version of the pre-Crisis "Earth-1", imo. If that is not good enough, then there is always "Earth-1991" (Armageddon 2001), "Earth-1994" (Zero-Hour) and so on, if you want to see any significant progression of the characters...or not.

Actually during the Silver and Bronze ages almost all of the books had multi universal guest shots with the buzz word Crisis in the titles.

I also think that it should be allowed to progress slowly and naturally like it would have if CoIE never happened and they just kept writing E-1 stories

[scary harpy]

Earth-1 becomes Earth-1985
Earth-2 becomes Earth-1961 ("1961") is the year of "Earth-2" was first introduced. Or, "Earth-1938", the start of the Golden Age.
Earth-S becomes Earth-1939 (when Captain Marvel makes his first appearance).

Yes, no...?

I guess.

They're just names. Earth 1 got called “Earth 1” because its inhabitants those to call it that once another Earth was discovered. They're not going to start calling their world Earth 1985 all of the sudden.

Bingo. You got it.

No.

Earth 2 was created when Barry Allen 'discovered' the Speed Force. That was in 1956.

I think its just Earth 2 and not Earth 1956.