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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    The Japanese don't seem to think optimism needs to come at the cost of strength. Western writers do. Superman written correctly doesn't come off as weak simply because he's able to keep his bearings and remain true to himself.
    Is this because Superman won't kill? It's not like Goku's snapping the necks of any ordinary human that angers him. He likes physical challenges from his opponents so it's a fair fight. Superman holding back is being true to himself, that's been like that for the majority of his existence.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Is this because Superman won't kill? It's not like Goku's snapping the necks of any ordinary human that angers him. He likes physical challenges from his opponents so it's a fair fight. Superman holding back is being true to himself, that's been like that for the majority of his existence.
    No, as far as I can tell Luffy has never killed anyone yet he never has let anyone push him around or talk down to him. Something the Post-Crisis writers can't seem to grasp, somehow or another they struggle to determine the difference between weak and good. Somehow these modern writers have convinced themselves that sad backstories and angry disposition make for strong people which is so far from the truth you have to imagine these people have little to no real life experience.

    Honestly I'd say Post-Crisis Superman and Batman are examples of the "Weak men make hard times" limerick.
    Rules are for lesser men, Charlie - Grand Pa Joe ~ Willy Wonka & Chocolate Factory

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Is this because Superman won't kill? It's not like Goku's snapping the necks of any ordinary human that angers him. He likes physical challenges from his opponents so it's a fair fight. Superman holding back is being true to himself, that's been like that for the majority of his existence.
    Just look at jon/damian and compare that relationship with clark/bruce. Jon never let's himself be bullied(so far. But, fake clark kent disease is prevalent in superman characters) . He would punch back. hard. While, clark gets incompetent around bruce. He does the naivete routine or i am the 'bigger' man nonsense. When in actuality clark is just being a coward. Moreover, superman used to be like goku as well. They were both meant to embody the aspirational qualities of working class. Superman used to only get stronger by challenging himself. He used to race trains, bullets.. Etc. Jump around testing limits. Workout in his secret citadel. Punch beams. The guy was a strongman.Goldenage superman would never hold back in a fair fight or against an opponent that wanted him at best in a duel.if he does, that's plain cowardess and weakness . For example, lex. Lex once got abilities of superman using power stone. Superman went at him hard. He punched him through a wall.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The World View Post
    No, as far as I can tell Luffy has never killed anyone yet he never has let anyone push him around or talk down to him. Something the Post-Crisis writers can't seem to grasp, somehow or another they struggle to determine the difference between weak and good. Somehow these modern writers have convinced themselves that sad backstories and angry disposition make for strong people which is so far from the truth you have to imagine these people have little to no real life experience.
    Many, many people talk down to Luffy, including his own crew mates. They respect him, and they also know he's a fool. I haven't had a single example of this happening to Superman so it's impossible for me to give an opinion on. Sad backstories has been a staple of fiction since forever, people love heroes with origins like that. Luffy's entire crew has sad back stories, Luffy himself has a sad backstory with his disappeared father fighting against the World Government. Of course Superman would be angry and sad about losing Krypton and his parents, that's a realistic depiction of how people act when they lose their cultures. This defines him but he's not sad, depressing hero, he's optimistic and gives people hope - unlike Batman, and that aspect hasn't stopped him being the top DC super-hero. If a title is flagging, DC's answer is to put him in it because it works. Goku didn't get the sad backstory tied to Planet Vegeta, Vegeta did. It's a reason why Vegeta is a very popular character in the Dragon Ball franchise.

    What truth? The ambiguity of the argument here could mean anything. What doing you want them to act like?

    Honestly I'd say Post-Crisis Superman and Batman are examples of the "Weak men make hard times" limerick.
    I'm unsure what the definition of "weak" is here, since it embodies numerous characters in popular manga and fiction.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 10-29-2020 at 02:33 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Many, many people talk down to Luffy, including his own crew mates. They respect him, and they also know he's a fool. I haven't had a single example of this happening to Superman so it's impossible for me to give an opinion on. Sad backstories has been a staple of fiction since forever, people love heroes with origins like that. Luffy's entire crew has sad back stories, Luffy himself has a sad backstory with his disappeared father fighting against the World Government. Of course Superman would be angry and sad about losing Krypton and his parents, that's a realistic depiction of how people act when they lose their cultures. This defines him but he's not sad, depressing hero, he's optimistic and gives people hope - unlike Batman, and that aspect hasn't stopped him being the top DC super-hero. If a title is flagging, DC's answer is to put him in it because it works. Goku didn't get the sad backstory tied to Planet Vegeta, Vegeta did. It's a reason why Vegeta is a very popular character in the Dragon Ball franchise.
    While Luffy does sorrow in his backstory (mainly related to Sabo) it's overall a fairly positive childhood compared to his crewmates. And his father basically nothing important to do with Luffy's backstory. Luffy didn't even really know he had a dad until his grandpa told him. And even when that happened Luffy barely cared.

  6. #21
    Incredible Member Laufeyson's Avatar
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    Hm, I think you already spot on saying that Superman is famous in anime fan because he is strong. To be fair, his booming in anime culture start with Man of Steel, where no matter how you spin it with how bad the movie is, the fight of that movie is the closest that we can get for DBZ fight in movie format, and that's already bringing people who love anime to Superman. But, I think the seal the deal is with One Punch Man and Boku no Hero Academia.

    One Punch Man and Boku no Hero Academia had elements of Superman in their story, and that makes people of anime interest in him. Still, even then, Superman is not that famous to anime fans. You see, the way I see it is people who love Boku no Hero, Academia will love Superman, but One Punch Man is not necessarily the same. Fans of Boku no Hero Academia love Superman because of how Jon is similar to Deku (which is weird because Deku is made to be a Spider-Man character) and Superman is All-Might (which is also strange because All Might is without a doubt made to be like Hokage or Captain America rather than Superman).

    So it can be said that, for people who love anime, WW, Flash, Supergirl, and GL don't really interest them because they are archetypes that never happen in anime fandom. Besides people who love anime mostly, I mean most of them (92%) don't watch western TV series or Hollywood movies so they won't really care about Flash or Supergirl.

    To be fair the same can be said with Batman too. Batman is considered a weird hero because their anti-hero is different from comics, so Batman doesn't garner attention in Japan.

    So Superman is famous because he is strong (like DBZ) and he had an archetype in all-might. His status as otherworlder doesn't make people want to read him, because sci-fi genre doesn't sell in anime/manga fandom. and his mystic status? I can guarantee one million percents that people doesn't care with that.
    Akui, Kyōfu, Fun'nu, Zōo, Zetsubō, Tōsō, Satsui, Hametsu, Zetsumetsu, Metsubō

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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    Hm, I think you already spot on saying that Superman is famous in anime fan because he is strong. To be fair, his booming in anime culture start with Man of Steel, where no matter how you spin it with how bad the movie is, the fight of that movie is the closest that we can get for DBZ fight in movie format, and that's already bringing people who love anime to Superman. But, I think the seal the deal is with One Punch Man and Boku no Hero Academia.

    One Punch Man and Boku no Hero Academia had elements of Superman in their story, and that makes people of anime interest in him. Still, even then, Superman is not that famous to anime fans. You see, the way I see it is people who love Boku no Hero, Academia will love Superman, but One Punch Man is not necessarily the same. Fans of Boku no Hero Academia love Superman because of how Jon is similar to Deku (which is weird because Deku is made to be a Spider-Man character) and Superman is All-Might (which is also strange because All Might is without a doubt made to be like Hokage or Captain America rather than Superman).

    So it can be said that, for people who love anime, WW, Flash, Supergirl, and GL don't really interest them because they are archetypes that never happen in anime fandom. Besides people who love anime mostly, I mean most of them (92%) don't watch western TV series or Hollywood movies so they won't really care about Flash or Supergirl.

    To be fair the same can be said with Batman too. Batman is considered a weird hero because their anti-hero is different from comics, so Batman doesn't garner attention in Japan.

    So Superman is famous because he is strong (like DBZ) and he had an archetype in all-might. His status as otherworlder doesn't make people want to read him, because sci-fi genre doesn't sell in anime/manga fandom. and his mystic status? I can guarantee one million percents that people doesn't care with that.
    I don't know. I think it has to do with how its presented. Currently, God of Highschool, one of the bigger and currently popular manwhas out there, is really hitting that otherworlder status pretty hard. Hell, its also had a direct ripoff of Supergirl and a descendant of Hercules. As well as touched upon a number of other such things. So it depends on how the "otherworlder" is presented.

  8. #23
    Incredible Member Laufeyson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    I don't know. I think it has to do with how its presented. Currently, God of Highschool, one of the bigger and currently popular manwhas out there, is really hitting that otherworlder status pretty hard. Hell, its also had a direct ripoff of Supergirl and a descendant of Hercules. As well as touched upon a number of other such things. So it depends on how the "otherworlder" is presented.
    Yeah, but GoH main selling is a fighting manhwa so the otherworlder aspect is not really that matter. To be fair otherworlder aspect is ONLY matter in isekai genre where the main selling is people from this world come to other world.
    Akui, Kyōfu, Fun'nu, Zōo, Zetsubō, Tōsō, Satsui, Hametsu, Zetsumetsu, Metsubō

    PERFECT CONCLUSION: LEARNING END

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Many, many people talk down to Luffy, including his own crew mates.
    No, they don't. When the captain isn't playing around.Nobody, including zorro would respect luffy if he was a pushover in serious business. Clark is a pushover when it comes to serious business. Luffy does what he wants. Others make plans around him. Nobody chains luffy.Actually, read the books. Zorro says multiple times if luffy ain't good enough to respect he would take his spot. Point blank.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-30-2020 at 01:43 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    No, they don't. When the captain isn't playing around.Nobody, including zorro would respect luffy if he was a pushover in serious business. Clark is a pushover when it comes to serious business. Luffy does what he wants. Others make plans around him. Nobody chains luffy.
    They do that every time Luffy recruits someone, and while he may gain their respect they still think he's not the sharpest tool in the shed (he isn't). If they think he's being a fool they call him out, Usopp goes so far as to challenge Luffy to a fight to stop them from replacing the Going Merry, Luffy's crew are anything but Luffy's Yes Men.

    How? This keeps being said without any proof it's true. Anything serious comes up he's there to fight it and will sacrifice everything to protect others.



    Luffy wouldn't be where he is today without others in his crew doing the planning for him. Unlike Superman who rarely relies on others to do his thinking for him and is the leader whenever the Super Family teams up.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 10-30-2020 at 01:55 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    They do that every time Luffy recruits someone, and while he may gain their respect they still think he's not the sharpest tool in the shed (he isn't). If they think he's being a fool they call him out, Usopp goes so far as to challenge Luffy to a fight to stop them from replacing the Going Merry, Luffy's crew are anything but Luffy's Yes Men.

    How? This keeps being said without any proof it's true. Anything serious comes up he's there to fight it and will sacrifice everything to protect others.



    Luffy wouldn't be where he is today without others in his crew doing the planning for him. Unlike Superman who rarely relies on others to do his thinking for him and is the leader whenever the Super Family teams up.
    Luffy is an idiot. Academic Intelligence isn't a necessity in life. It take more than that to be a leader. The books and the crew also know/state he is instinctive and intuitive like an animal. He knows when to punch, who to punch and when to run. The crew all of them understand that. I didn't say luffy's crew were yes men. Did i? Kindly Don't put word in my mouth. Luffy would never recruit yes men.But on that topic, the crew followed luffy's orders. Ussop had to apologise for starting a duel and leaving the crew. Zorro himself said without an apology usopp wouldn't be allowed back in. If luffy behaves like a pushover, zorro himself would leave. That's how these guys work.Luffy has certain authority. Captain's orders matter. Heck! The current chapter with oden and nine scabberds was about why a crew follows an order from a dead guy that died years ago. Its because they want to, not because its an order. Its a voluntary instinct, now.

    Big deal, he punched a guy. Want me to show you series of pictures where batman absolutely rips apart superman.
    For instance, "the last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead".
    "i won't accept vigilantism in my town" professes the great superman not realising he himself is one.Only to get flipped by a guy that doesn't even have superspeed.Height of incompetence from a guy with superstrength.

    There are thousands of nonsense like this. The guy gives a great speech about holding back, only to get electrocuted by darkseid.Batman/superman world's finest in dcau is full of superman being a lame. Batman stole his gal,flip him, showed him he could have beaten him easily without flipping using the rock,beat his villains... Etc. The list is loooong.

    You seem to not get it. Luffy doesn't plan.Ever.. He doesn't believe in "planning" because then it wouldn't be an adventure, afterwards . Luffy wants to face the unknown in the new frontier of the new world because humanity is romantic like that. He wants the adventure, the magic and mystery alive. Besides, planning is boring. He want his dreams to be ever enigmatic and never ending . Instinct is where all the fun is at. His crew plans things for themselves, not for luffy. Luffy is a true man of action. Superman plans. He just, sucks at it. Luffy opts to follow instinct. It's about creating an iron will that knows no fear. Luffy cuts himself using a knife under his eyes in the first romance dawn episode. There is a reason for it. He is trying to defeat his weakness and forge his resolve.

    No, luffy is big enough to admit he needs others. It actually matters how he says it. His competency is never being questioned. Luffy would still be doing what he does finding other means regardless because that's his will. The will of d, will always bring about a storm. Superman would never say he needs others. But, he consistently can't interrogate criminals. He needs batman to solve crimes(investigative journalism gentlemen) . He needs magic guys to come in to his rescue. So on and so forth. Clark on the other hand has people questioning his competency and he comes of as lame. He gets stopped by a rock. Point blank. That's just pathetic.K-metal needs better ways of being a weakness.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-30-2020 at 03:38 AM.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Off topic, but Luffy, while the leader, is kept in line at times by his crew. As his whims have gotten them into unnecessary trouble on a number of occasions.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Off topic, but Luffy, while the leader, is kept in line at times by his crew. As his whims have gotten them into unnecessary trouble on a number of occasions.
    Sure,but then they fail to reign him in most of the time.When they do,it is because luffy finds some sense in what they are saying,like jinbei,zorro...etc.Even,it hard to control the kind guy lurgy is.No chain can bind him.It's kinda crazy how similar goldenage superman and luffy are.the laughtale bit.the dreams speech.the outlaw bit.the hope for the oppressed bit.an agent of transformation in the society.heck!the d and el family. Superman has become far too tame and safe.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-30-2020 at 10:02 PM.

  14. #29
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    I think it's telling that every time anti- Post Crisis fans talk about Superman being a wimp in that era they only mention one or two instances of Batman being an asshole to him (something every character was a victim of) and nothing else.

    Keep in mind this image is also from post crisis:



    But yeah, post crisis Superman was just such a doormat.

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I think it's telling that every time anti- Post Crisis fans talk about Superman being a wimp in that era they only mention one or two instances of Batman being an asshole to him (something every character was a victim of) and nothing else.

    Keep in mind this image is also from post crisis:



    But yeah, post crisis Superman was just such a doormat.
    OK. Other than batman what are clark's major relationship.Diana and New gods are the only characters he has any tangible relationship with outside.Darkseid and orion had humiliated superman if I remember(understandable ) .JL comics had many instances of clark being navel gazing in preflashpoint(lame). Superman is consistently shown to be at ease of taking L's from the likes of flash,Lex..etc(don't care if he wins or loses. But being comfortable of losing is wimpy).There are way too many instances of clark being controlled by the government as well.Moreover,my examples were strictly limited to dcau.Because the guy I replied to thinks dcau superman is postcrisis superman's successor (factually wrong).

    There is a difference between mopey/edgy and being really strong.the pic you provided shows exactly what @Theworld is talking about.Post Crisis writers believe edginess means strong.They overdo it as well when the character needs to look strong.Jon is rarely flexing muscles with damian.The kid is sunny and strong. On the other hand,Superman with guns in dos to show how badass he is.Superman in exile.they can't write superman as gladiator metaphorically.So they make him literal one.honestly ,that's actually a bit better since there is a point.Future state is good.but,that's still problematic.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-31-2020 at 01:23 AM.

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