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  1. #166
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    The only major anime characters with a no-kill rule similar to Superman or Batman is Sailor Moon. Even the characters who try to befriend villains like Naruto have killed. Funny how most anime heroes would be considered dark.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  2. #167
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laufeyson View Post
    It's hard because Japanese wish fullfilments are something like this:
    -The MCs are loser Japanese that suddenly become super overpowered beyond any measure out of cheat
    -He is so strong he has no real conflict and easy life
    -The MC need to be a loser in high school, a bland loser in high school, or a loser corporate slave

    Now Superman is strong and sometimes his story can have or can't have a good real conflict against his villain depending on the writers. But, Clark as character is not a loser. He is succesfull reporter with a good wife and good child. Stable income, a great relationship, and good human all in all. Japanese otakus hate that type of character to the bone. To them, he is something that they will never be. A character like Clark is called as Riaju (Normies) and generally used as villain or someone ignorant in anime stories. Not to mention, Clark himself is Alien from another planet. As long as Clark's rocket doesn't suddenly crashed into Akita Perfecture and raised by rice farmer or something like that, the otakus won't touch the series let alone watch it, because it's not from Japan.
    A lot of anime/manga fans are tired of the "relatable" MC manga trend. The fact that Jujutsu Kaisen and Chainsaw Man gained popularity because of their MCs showed this. Btw, otakus will touch a story set outside japan as long as the art is still animesque. Spy x Family is one of shonen jumps' most popular new mangas and it's set in a Cold-War Germany inspired country. The MC is the opposite of everything you just listed otakus would hate. He's badass, he's an adult and has a wholesome fake family.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    If there is no superman there is no book. Therefore there wouldn't be clark kent or kal el.
    That has nothing to do with what I said, that trait doesn't define Superman. Batman is more likely to give into his pain for justice, not Superman - it's a reason he's viewed as mentally unstable. But stripping Superman of the House of El, his relationship with Lois and the Kents is acceptable? Two of those created by Siegel and Shuster thmselves.

    That was miura believes his manga to be. Miura has said he was inspired by many shoujo novels. It has a good romance story in it. It's not just "raar! Demon! Die! Die! Die! ". As @laufeyson said there is big love triangle. Heck! Guts and griffith themselves seem overly cozy in that wierd love-hate relationship.
    Why is Muira being taken as law when his claim to fame, Berserk, has absolutely nothing in common with Superman? Define "good romance" because I don't have any examples to explain why they're liked, while anything non-action is considered heresy in a modern Superman title. That's an abusive relationship, not a romantic one. Griffith is an absolute monster who sold out his friends to become a god and raped Casca with his first act as a deity.

    Have you heard of stoicism? Enduring pain with a smile. Get it?
    Stoic is about not showing feelings, not smiling while being in pain - that's sadomasochism. And Superman is not stoic, even in the Golden Age.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    A lot of anime/manga fans are tired of the "relatable" MC manga trend. The fact that Jujutsu Kaisen and Chainsaw Man gained popularity because of their MCs showed this. Btw, otakus will touch a story set outside japan as long as the art is still animesque. Spy x Family is one of shonen jumps' most popular new mangas and it's set in a Cold-War Germany inspired country. The MC is the opposite of everything you just listed otakus would hate. He's badass, he's an adult and has a wholesome fake family.
    Jujutsu to me is hanging into the boom of Kimetsu same with Chainsaw Man, so to be honest we need to see the sales after the anime to see if both of them really popular or not. I think the current trend of Isekai still look into the relatable protagonist shown in Mushoku Tensei or Kumo desu ga nani ka. But, I think otakus will touch story if the art is animesque is a bit wrong, because there is an animosity that RWBY, Castlevania, and any other American cartoon mimicking anime art is not an anime. Spy x Family still has Japanese MC in Yori. What I mean is like Spider-Man manga that was developed by Jump it failed and that's because the Japan doesn't care with American properties, and if Japanese can't take Spider-Man, I don't think Superman can sold there.

  5. #170
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    The only major anime characters with a no-kill rule similar to Superman or Batman is Sailor Moon. Even the characters who try to befriend villains like Naruto have killed. Funny how most anime heroes would be considered dark.
    Gohan has shown to be quite resistant to killing, even against known major threats like Cell and Buu (though the latter, his own arrogance was his downfall). It took 16 being brutally dismantled and crushed for Gohan in the Cell games to finally ramp it up.

  6. #171
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    While it's not really a Superman talk, but I think it's worth telling here. Sui Ishida of Tokyo Ghoul and Tokyo Ghoul: Re just announces his new manga entitled Choujin X (Superman X). He announced it in Twitter saying that he just finished the storyboard.

  7. #172
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    The only major anime characters with a no-kill rule similar to Superman or Batman is Sailor Moon. Even the characters who try to befriend villains like Naruto have killed. Funny how most anime heroes would be considered dark.
    It's not like Goku likes to kill either though

  8. #173
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    That has nothing to do with what I said, that trait doesn't define Superman. Batman is more likely to give into his pain for justice, not Superman - it's a reason he's viewed as mentally unstable. But stripping Superman of the House of El, his relationship with Lois and the Kents is acceptable? Two of those created by Siegel and Shuster thmselves.



    Why is Muira being taken as law when his claim to fame, Berserk, has absolutely nothing in common with Superman? Define "good romance" because I don't have any examples to explain why they're liked, while anything non-action is considered heresy in a modern Superman title. That's an abusive relationship, not a romantic one. Griffith is an absolute monster who sold out his friends to become a god and raped Casca with his first act as a deity.



    Stoic is about not showing feelings, not smiling while being in pain - that's sadomasochism. And Superman is not stoic, even in the Golden Age.
    What pain? Being superman isn't a mad man's choice like it is for batman. Superman does the right thing. The pain comes from the corrupt structures and offcials trying to kill him for protecting the little guy.nah! The s and superman wasn't related to house of El or ma/pa. These things being introduced was baaad. Superman is superman on his own, not because skyparents or earth parents. The s wasn't some great sygil from house of el nor was it symbol of hope. It was just an s.House of el became a thing because of these guys wanted superman as some crappy boyscout white knight, killing the gladiator allegory in the process. There wasn't a house of el. It wasn't a thing. There was only jor-eL and lara. If you think lois is only good for being superman's love interest that's on you. Moreover, no i didn't say strip these things from superman. Stories have focus. I don't read action comics for shipping nonsense. I don't want an entire issue of action comics filled with nonsense romance and drama .As if, i want a superman story without lois.That has never been anything i said.

    Are you afraid of berserk or something? It's a seinen manga, that has an author who is inspired by shoujo which is primarily targeted for girls. Dude, are you really asking me that? These things should be in the background. It should be a minor flavour. If an action comics releases and all people talk about is "ww/super" or "clois" nonsense. I say, then that is bad. Ofcourse,griffith is a monster. Guts would have also became the same monster. Everyone has a potential beast of darkness. That's nietzschean philosophy. Guts himself almost raped casca.
    "don't become the monster you fight"
    So i don't understand what that has to do with anything.Also, there was a time when griffith was guts friend and confident. When he wasn't a monster.Abusive isn't the word i would use for guts-griffith relation before the torture of griffith happened and guts left him.

    Dude! That's a superficial understanding of what stoicism entails. That ain't sadomaschism. It would be if the guy is enjoying the pain and wanting it again. Sheesh! Are you really after twisting everything i say? A real stoic smiles through all the hardships. All might is stoic.Allmight smiled through the pain of organ loose.
    "The Symbol of Peace cannot be daunted by evil. I smile to show the pressure of heroes and to trick the fear inside of me."
    This is a character with depth. Not, fluff writing which plagues superman stories many a times. Superman is not a man who smiles cause its easy for him. He smiles cause he is a champion.Being a champion is about " getting hit and keep getting up".

    "When things get hard, laugh like the way i taught you"
    “For what prevents us from saying that the happy life is to have a mind that is free, lofty, fearless and steadfast - a mind that is placed beyond the reach of fear, beyond the reach of desire, that counts virtue the only good, baseness the only evil, and all else but a worthless mass of things, which come and go without increasing or diminishing the highest good, and neither subtract any part from the happy life nor add any part to it?
    A man thus grounded must, whether he wills or not, necessarily be attended by constant cheerfulness and a joy that is deep and issues from deep within, since he finds delight in his own resources, and desires no joys greater than his inner joys.”
    This is stoicism. Pure and simple.I am honestly, surprised you are even going to the masochism thing. You twist everything i say into nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    The only major anime characters with a no-kill rule similar to Superman or Batman is Sailor Moon. Even the characters who try to befriend villains like Naruto have killed. Funny how most anime heroes would be considered dark.
    Full metal alchemist and rurouni kenshin have protagonists that has " doesn't kill rule". The only superman that hasn't killed is silverage/bronzeage superman. Superman's no kill rule is bendable, characterisation wise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    It's not like Goku likes to kill either though
    Goku has killed.He will kill if need be.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-26-2020 at 03:16 AM.

  9. #174
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Full metal alchemist and rurouni kenshin have protagonists that doesn't kill rule. The only superman that hasn't killed is silverage/bronzeage superman. Superman's no kill rule is bendable, characterisation wise.
    Do you mean Al? Ed, Riza and Roy had no problem killing people.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  10. #175
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Do you mean Al? Ed, Riza and Roy had no problem killing people.
    Yeah!so?doesn't mean ed and al agreed with it.I mean,wonderwoman kills and superman can't do much about that.Saying everybody has to obey by limitations you put on yourself and your morality is absurd.

  11. #176
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah!so?doesn't mean ed and al agreed with it.I mean,wonderwoman kills and superman can't do much about that.Saying everybody has to obey by limitations you put on yourself and your morality is absurd.
    Ed wasn't a moralist like Superman or Batman. He didn't kill because he was at his limit or was forced to, he did because he felt the person deserved it.
    december 21st has passed where are my superpowers?

  12. #177
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Ed wasn't a moralist like Superman or Batman. He didn't kill because he was at his limit or was forced to, he did because he felt the person deserved it.
    deserved it?edward Elrich in full metal alchemist brotherhood hasn't killed anyone.
    No,ed didn't kill because there is no replacement for a human life for equivalent exchange.Ed couldn't bring back his mother. Thus,Human life is deemed too precious.Finally, you are right.Ed was a moral rationalist. There are many who believe morality can be reached through rationality.I believe and ed was such a fellow.A bit of an enlightenment era notion,like say kant.I do believe,fma is kantian in regards to certain things.

    Hah!pffft!batman teaches squat.As if a guy wearing batcostume and beating up people teach morality.Superman isn't moralist either.Superman is made out to be this messianic figure.that's it.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    What pain? Being superman isn't a mad man's choice like it is for batman. Superman does the right thing. The pain comes from the corrupt structures and offcials trying to kill him for protecting the little guy.nah! The s and superman wasn't related to house of El or ma/pa. These things being introduced was baaad. Superman is superman on his own, not because skyparents or earth parents. The s wasn't some great sygil from house of el nor was it symbol of hope. It was just an s.House of el became a thing because of these guys wanted superman as some crappy boyscout white knight, killing the gladiator allegory in the process. There wasn't a house of el. It wasn't a thing. There was only jor-eL and lara. If you think lois is only good for being superman's love interest that's on you. Moreover, no i didn't say strip these things from superman. Stories have focus. I don't read action comics for shipping nonsense. I don't want an entire issue of action comics filled with nonsense romance and drama .As if, i want a superman story without lois.That has never been anything i said.
    Moving the goal posts, not what I said about why Batman was bought up. Superman does, he's also more mentally sound than what Batman does - which is putting himself though physical pain to fight crime. That wasn't the context for your argument. There is a strange habit of putting a flag early in Superman's evolution as a character and ignoring the greater context that informed him as if the character stopped changing afterward, facts aren't chosen because they're "liked." This isn't about what you'd like Superman to be, this is how Superman is. Except we know those factors are big impacts on Superman across the mythos, and have defined him for generations. Superman was a boy scout by the 50's. I wasn't stating my opinion on Lois, it's not really important - her being a defining feature since Siegel and Shuster is and she's hardly solely defined by being Superman's girlfriend/wife. Except your argument is to take these things away from Superman, therefore stripping him of those things in his mythos. Stories focus on many things and since when did Lois and Clark's relationship do that in the comics? No examples are shown. That was a thing in the Lois and Clark tv show, but that was for the soap opera audience, not the comic book fans. Most super-heroes have romance in the background, because people like seeing them have lives which mirror their own. That goes for most media. When has a comics ever done that? There are romantic specials and one-shots, like the Wedding special but it's not a regular thing in super-hero comics. Despite implying that kicking Lois out of the comics would be acceptable.

    Are you afraid of berserk or something? It's a seinen manga, that has an author who is inspired by shoujo which is primarily targeted for girls. Dude, are you really asking me that? These things should be in the background. It should be a minor flavour. If an action comics releases and all people talk about is "ww/super" or "clois" nonsense. I say, then that is bad. Ofcourse,griffith is a monster. Guts would have also became the same monster. Everyone has a potential beast of darkness. That's nietzschean philosophy. Guts himself almost raped casca.
    "don't become the monster you fight"
    Please don't discredit my examples with loaded terms like "afraid" or "obsessed," it's not only wrong it shows a lack of faith in your own argument against those subjects. Frankly, I'm puzzled why Berserk keeps getting bought up, a case can be made for anime like Dragon Ball Z or One Piece but not Berserk. Berserk's tone and content are distinctly wrong to compare to Superman since Superman isn't a grim dark property - this is Superman, not WarHammer 40k. And now we're back to Superman solely being confined to being Action Comics as a title as if that mean anything with his publication history over multitude of solo titles. This didn't clear up may question about romance, which was an incredibly straight forward one, making the Super titles out to be romance comics like Archie. Which is again not gone into because it's false. People shipping characters don't make comic book romantic genre, that's how that works. It also insulting to the original shippers of Clark and Lois, Siegel and Shuster. The relationship between Guts and Griffith has nothing to do with Superman's love life.

    So i don't understand what that has to do with anything.Also, there was a time when griffith was guts friend and confident. When he wasn't a monster.Abusive isn't the word i would use for guts-griffith relation before the torture of griffith happened and guts left him.
    Why is Guts and Griffith's relationship being mentioned, Guts love was Casca, not Griffith. What is their friendship before Griffith became evil relevant here? Unless they were lovers it's meaningless, unless the argument is you want to replace Lois with a male character, that I'd be interested in exploring but it still has nothing to with Guts and Griffith.

    Dude! That's a superficial understanding of what stoicism entails. That ain't sadomaschism. It would be if the guy is enjoying the pain and wanting it again. Sheesh! Are you really after twisting everything i say? A real stoic smiles through all the hardships. All might is stoic.Allmight smiled through the pain of organ loose.
    "The Symbol of Peace cannot be daunted by evil. I smile to show the pressure of heroes and to trick the fear inside of me."
    This is a character with depth. Not, fluff writing which plagues superman stories many a times. Superman is not a man who smiles cause its easy for him. He smiles cause he is a champion.Being a champion is about " getting hit and keep getting up".

    "When things get hard, laugh like the way i taught you"
    “For what prevents us from saying that the happy life is to have a mind that is free, lofty, fearless and steadfast - a mind that is placed beyond the reach of fear, beyond the reach of desire, that counts virtue the only good, baseness the only evil, and all else but a worthless mass of things, which come and go without increasing or diminishing the highest good, and neither subtract any part from the happy life nor add any part to it?
    A man thus grounded must, whether he wills or not, necessarily be attended by constant cheerfulness and a joy that is deep and issues from deep within, since he finds delight in his own resources, and desires no joys greater than his inner joys.”
    This is stoicism. Pure and simple.I am honestly, surprised you are even going to the masochism thing. You twist everything i say into nonsense.
    What you were describing was sadomaschism, not being stoic. I'm not twisting anything. That wasn't the context and you're moving the goal posts again. Stoic has nothing to do with smiling, smiling is something else and just brings more questions which are pointless. Like why they're smiling. If someone's smiling because they love the pain it's not the same term as someone faking it to not look weak to others. DC Comics disagrees. Luffy is among the most light hearted smiling protagonists in fiction, he loves life and finds joy in living he only smiles though pain when pushed and only does this as a last resort. In fact, he's like Superman in that respect aside from the latter. He's very cheerful, which again reveals a hypocrisy because when Superman does this it's bad. That's not being stoic, stoic people don't talk much and Luffy won't shut up.

    Full metal alchemist and rurouni kenshin have protagonists that doesn't kill rule. The only superman that hasn't killed is silverage/bronzeage superman. Superman's no kill rule is bendable, characterisation wise.
    The conversation about Superman not killing is vastly more complex than this, and your arguments were tilted toward Damien Wayne in "Batman and Son" than Wonder Woman.

    Goku has killed.He will kill if need be.
    Goku is more liable to kill than Wonder Woman.

  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Full metal alchemist and rurouni kenshin have protagonists that has " doesn't kill rule". The only superman that hasn't killed is silverage/bronzeage superman. Superman's no kill rule is bendable, characterisation wise.
    .... Hm, dude... You know that aside from Kenshin the other characters have no problem with killing, right? I mean while the battles are certainly traumatizing for them, Aoshi, Sanosuke, and Saitou have no quarrel with killing, right.

  15. #180
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Moving the goal posts, not what I said about why Batman was bought up. Superman does, he's also more mentally sound than what Batman does - which is putting himself though physical pain to fight crime. That wasn't the context for your argument. There is a strange habit of putting a flag early in Superman's evolution as a character and ignoring the greater context that informed him as if the character stopped changing afterward, facts aren't chosen because they're "liked." This isn't about what you'd like Superman to be, this is how Superman is. Except we know those factors are big impacts on Superman across the mythos, and have defined him for generations. Superman was a boy scout by the 50's. I wasn't stating my opinion on Lois, it's not really important - her being a defining feature since Siegel and Shuster is and she's hardly solely defined by being Superman's girlfriend/wife. Except your argument is to take these things away from Superman, therefore stripping him of those things in his mythos. Stories focus on many things and since when did Lois and Clark's relationship do that in the comics? No examples are shown. That was a thing in the Lois and Clark tv show, but that was for the soap opera audience, not the comic book fans. Most super-heroes have romance in the background, because people like seeing them have lives which mirror their own. That goes for most media. When has a comics ever done that? There are romantic specials and one-shots, like the Wedding special but it's not a regular thing in super-hero comics. Despite implying that kicking Lois out of the comics would be acceptable.



    Please don't discredit my examples with loaded terms like "afraid" or "obsessed," it's not only wrong it shows a lack of faith in your own argument against those subjects. Frankly, I'm puzzled why Berserk keeps getting bought up, a case can be made for anime like Dragon Ball Z or One Piece but not Berserk. Berserk's tone and content are distinctly wrong to compare to Superman since Superman isn't a grim dark property - this is Superman, not WarHammer 40k. And now we're back to Superman solely being confined to being Action Comics as a title as if that mean anything with his publication history over multitude of solo titles. This didn't clear up may question about romance, which was an incredibly straight forward one, making the Super titles out to be romance comics like Archie. Which is again not gone into because it's false. People shipping characters don't make comic book romantic genre, that's how that works. It also insulting to the original shippers of Clark and Lois, Siegel and Shuster. The relationship between Guts and Griffith has nothing to do with Superman's love life.



    Why is Guts and Griffith's relationship being mentioned, Guts love was Casca, not Griffith. What is their friendship before Griffith became evil relevant here? Unless they were lovers it's meaningless, unless the argument is you want to replace Lois with a male character, that I'd be interested in exploring but it still has nothing to with Guts and Griffith.



    What you were describing was sadomaschism, not being stoic. I'm not twisting anything. That wasn't the context and you're moving the goal posts again. Stoic has nothing to do with smiling, smiling is something else and just brings more questions which are pointless. Like why they're smiling. If someone's smiling because they love the pain it's not the same term as someone faking it to not look weak to others. DC Comics disagrees. Luffy is among the most light hearted smiling protagonists in fiction, he loves life and finds joy in living he only smiles though pain when pushed and only does this as a last resort. In fact, he's like Superman in that respect aside from the latter. He's very cheerful, which again reveals a hypocrisy because when Superman does this it's bad. That's not being stoic, stoic people don't talk much and Luffy won't shut up.



    The conversation about Superman not killing is vastly more complex than this, and your arguments were tilted toward Damien Wayne in "Batman and Son" than Wonder Woman.



    Goku is more liable to kill than Wonder Woman.
    It is hard to reach ya,mate.I am just going reduce everything i have to say.There is'nt "what superman is",There are "many versions of superman".I am arguing for a supermen i like which is an action hero.It was never about throwing lois under the bus or something.Berserk was brought up as an example to say @laufeyson is right in saying there are stories in shonen or seinen that was inspired by shoujo books which are primarly written to attract females.That qoute was supposed to say"Fullmetal alchemist and rurouni kenshin has protagonists that have'no kill rule'".I am sorry about that.And no the discussion around "no kill rule" ain't complex.It's stupid and aggravating.
    I didn't any goal posts.
    "Superman is the guy that punches wall for the little guy even if his hands gets broken in the process"
    is what i said."punch the wall" or "break the wall" is figure of speech used to say "tear down shackles that chains you".You know ,fight for freedom,liberty and all that jazz Finally,just read in depth about stoicism as philosphy,will ya.Stoicsim isn't about looking weak infront of people.It's about showing true strength by being fearless and smiling through hardships that entails when facing insurrmountable odds.Superman fights for those who can't fight for themselves.That entails his life would face constant jeopardy,injuries,pain,suffering and lose.Yet,he smiles through them all. well,thank you for informing me that luffy is cheerful.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 11-26-2020 at 03:47 AM.

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