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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    TFA ends with Rey having seen Kylo kill her adoptive father figure and critically injuring her best friend/potential love interest. So yeah, there's no indication whatsoever that Rey has any kind of romantic connection with him, and his interest appears to be that of a Sith taking on a powerful apprentice.

    It's weird how TLJ, in spite of occurring almost immediately after TFA, completely passes over Rey's intense hatred of Kylo and jumps into sexual tension and 'he can be redeemed.' There's not even the traditional time jump between films to explain her change in attitude.
    So I don't want to get in the way of a potentially valid criticism of TLJ (and I say that as one of those weirdos that loves it), but there needs to be an important distinction made between Kylo Ren and Ben Solo. Because Rey treats them as not quite the same. The entire subtext of TLJ is that the more Rey learns about Ben the more connected to him she becomes. Yeah, they lean into the sexual tension and the conclusion of Rise of Skywalker plays on the romantic angle, but it doesn't need to. The more of Ben she comes to understand, the more easily she sees through the Kylo Ren persona at the man underneath. Who can, in fact, be redeemed. She comes to recognize that "Kylo Ren" is a mask Ben wears to hide himself behind, his dark side persona.

    In TFA, all she ever sees is the Kylo Ren facade. And she rightfully turns away from it. During TLJ, she becomes visibly uncomfortable every time that side of Ben emerges. And she actively fights Kylo throughout Rise. But she isn't willing to just walk away anymore, because she's begun to see the difference between Ben and Kylo. And she wants to save Ben. From himself. From Kylo.

    We can debate the effectiveness of the arc. I thought the Rey and Ben stuff was some of the strongest material in TLJ, and was almost certainly the most well done bit of Rise. The two films have made Ben Solo into my favorite character in the sequel trilogy, despite the fact that I was bored silly with him in TFA. That obviously won't be true for everyone, and that's fair. But I don't agree that it's that far fetched that learning about the trauma that created Kylo would make Rey more sympathetic to him.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    So I don't want to get in the way of a potentially valid criticism of TLJ (and I say that as one of those weirdos that loves it), but there needs to be an important distinction made between Kylo Ren and Ben Solo. Because Rey treats them as not quite the same. The entire subtext of TLJ is that the more Rey learns about Ben the more connected to him she becomes. Yeah, they lean into the sexual tension and the conclusion of Rise of Skywalker plays on the romantic angle, but it doesn't need to. The more of Ben she comes to understand, the more easily she sees through the Kylo Ren persona at the man underneath. Who can, in fact, be redeemed. She comes to recognize that "Kylo Ren" is a mask Ben wears to hide himself behind, his dark side persona.

    In TFA, all she ever sees is the Kylo Ren facade. And she rightfully turns away from it. During TLJ, she becomes visibly uncomfortable every time that side of Ben emerges. And she actively fights Kylo throughout Rise. But she isn't willing to just walk away anymore, because she's begun to see the difference between Ben and Kylo. And she wants to save Ben. From himself. From Kylo.

    We can debate the effectiveness of the arc. I thought the Rey and Ben stuff was some of the strongest material in TLJ, and was almost certainly the most well done bit of Rise. The two films have made Ben Solo into my favorite character in the sequel trilogy, despite the fact that I was bored silly with him in TFA. That obviously won't be true for everyone, and that's fair. But I don't agree that it's that far fetched that learning about the trauma that created Kylo would make Rey more sympathetic to him.
    I feel that all the distractions from the will they, won't they with Kylo interfered with the better subplot of Finn development as a force sensitive. Heck that very element could have been something that helped to further consider depth of how the force feels can be tie to emotional bonds in more believable way than what we see forced with Kylo.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    I got a very clear impression that’s exactly the case with Finn. I thought it was obvious.

    Did this trilogy need more “young force user learns the jedi way” scenes? Did it have space for it?

    I like that they don’t come right out and say it.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    I feel that all the distractions from the will they, won't they with Kylo interfered with the better subplot of Finn development as a force sensitive. Heck that very element could have been something that helped to further consider depth of how the force feels can be tie to emotional bonds in more believable way than what we see forced with Kylo.
    The Rey/Kylo romance was arguably the central plot of the entire trilogy, and while it was a bit awkward at times, that almost made it more compelling because it feels more authentic than the kind of idealized love stories we usually see in sci-fi. Certainly it was the one instance in the entire franchise where human interactions and *gasp* acting and dialogue actually overshadowed the spaceships and lasers stuff, and I fail to see how anything they could have done with Finn would have topped that.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The Rey/Kylo romance was arguably the central plot of the entire trilogy, and while it was a bit awkward at times, that almost made it more compelling because it feels more authentic than the kind of idealized love stories we usually see in sci-fi. Certainly it was the one instance in the entire franchise where human interactions and *gasp* acting and dialogue actually overshadowed the spaceships and lasers stuff, and I fail to see how anything they could have done with Finn would have topped that.
    More than that, I think that Finn coming to that place on his own, in his own time, is important to the larger theme of Rise. Nobody gets to tell you who you are. It's a choice you make. He was raised to be a Stormtrooper, but rejected that because he knew it was wrong. But if you just have Rey training him, or leading him down that path, then is he doing it because he wants to or because it's necessary? Having Finn slowly come to grips with his connection to the Force, embrace at as a part of himself of his own accord, and ultimately put himself in a position to take that next step by choice and not necessity really feeds into that theme. Even at the end of the film he isn't locked into a path, he has choices.

    In this way he isn't defined by his relationship with Rey, or Poe. But finds himself, on his own terms.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The Rey/Kylo romance was arguably the central plot of the entire trilogy, and while it was a bit awkward at times, that almost made it more compelling because it feels more authentic than the kind of idealized love stories we usually see in sci-fi. Certainly it was the one instance in the entire franchise where human interactions and *gasp* acting and dialogue actually overshadowed the spaceships and lasers stuff, and I fail to see how anything they could have done with Finn would have topped that.
    To each their own; the idea of Rey and Kylo being romantically involved was one of the worst things about that last movie for me. I found her interactions with the other characters to be far more compelling, IMHO.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  7. #37
    Wrath of a God Xero Kaiser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The Rey/Kylo romance was arguably the central plot of the entire trilogy, and while it was a bit awkward at times, that almost made it more compelling because it feels more authentic than the kind of idealized love stories we usually see in sci-fi. Certainly it was the one instance in the entire franchise where human interactions and *gasp* acting and dialogue actually overshadowed the spaceships and lasers stuff, and I fail to see how anything they could have done with Finn would have topped that.
    I felt the exact opposite. They were strangers who were trying to kill each other on Monday and by Tuesday they're suddenly soul mates. It was awful.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xero Kaiser View Post
    I felt the exact opposite. They were strangers who were trying to kill each other on Monday and by Tuesday they're suddenly soul mates. It was awful.
    Yeah, I think the lack of build-up was one of the downfalls of that specific story arc.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Yeah, I think the lack of build-up was one of the downfalls of that specific story arc.
    ROMEO & JULIET unfolded in all of 72 hours.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    ROMEO & JULIET unfolded in all of 72 hours.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I am very curious how the novelization of Episode 9 will handle all that.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xero Kaiser View Post
    I felt the exact opposite. They were strangers who were trying to kill each other on Monday and by Tuesday they're suddenly soul mates. It was awful.
    I have to agree the Reylo romance was rushed IMO. Honestly The Last Jedi just doesn't fit with the rest of the trilogy. It's not just the Reylo romance and Finn's force sensitivity. It's like TLJ doesn't want to be associated with it's predecessor.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTER-OF-SUPRISE View Post
    I have to agree the Reylo romance was rushed IMO. Honestly The Last Jedi just doesn't fit with the rest of the trilogy. It's not just the Reylo romance and Finn's force sensitivity. It's like TLJ doesn't want to be associated with it's predecessor.
    I don't know; pretty much all of Rey and Kylo's relationship (whatever it exactly was by the end), stems from TLJ, not TFA. The retcons of Rey's origins build off of TLJ's now-incomplete answer. Luke's story progresses from where it was left in TLJ. Aside from Rose being sidelined, it actually felt like it was picking up where TLJ left off.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  13. #43
    Incredible Member abulafia's Avatar
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    so rey connects with finn and han in TFA. first gets his spine cut and the other one is murdered by his son.
    and she loves him none the less.
    reminds me of the best part from plinkett´s review

    "george lucas totally understands women" award
    you deserve it buddy, good job
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

  14. #44
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    I think there's a song that goes "a kiss is just a kiss."

    It's not like Rey spent the denouement of the movie pining and longing for Ben Solo. She was over it and had moved on.

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  15. #45
    Incredible Member abulafia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    I think there's a song that goes "a kiss is just a kiss."

    It's not like Rey spent the denouement of the movie pining and longing for Ben Solo. She was over it and had moved on.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    actually, we had 2 movies building up rey falling for the father slaughtering, best friend crippeling solo/organa/skywalker dude
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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