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  1. #331
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    The only positive Thing is that we still did not get the "Disney bought tickets to bolster numbers" idiocy that happened after Captain Marvel made Money after hordes of People on YouTube alone tried to make Money with Video after Video About CM certain to lose Money

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJStriker View Post
    That is what I find so strange about this “The Rise of Skywalker is a Massive Failure” being peddled peddled by to many you tubers?

    Yes I learned a good time ago to be smarter and realize the net especially social media does not represent nearly at all the whole of any fandom, that is clear as can be. But what gets me is how adiment many of these content creators are in laying down the hard hammer how just Awful TRoS was and how it is a major failure by........what standard?!

    That is the confusing part of ALL of this, what is the Standard that it is a success or failure for them?

    The movie Just Surpassed Rogue One at the Box Office;

    Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker $1,061,665,721
    Rogue One: A Star Wars Story $1,056,057,273


    Speaking of social media it has kept up to 86% in fan positivity in liking it. But some say that is some short of conspiracy now and it is fake? So when any other movie has a fan rating it should be considered fake now too? =/

    Even most word of moth from my Real Life with Friends, Co-workers and even many comic book store patrons and my fellow Movie Going viewers at 3 showings of the movie all saying they Really LIKED TRoS! So Do THEY count less then some Tuber or social media regular?

    *A Billion Dollar+ Box Office
    *Good Real Life reactions of the movie
    *Conflicting but still many positive fan scores

    It is Very Hard to see how this movie is a failure.

    I think many are just trying to make a narrative on You Tube and other places to convince many it is a disaster cause if They disliked it so much then they must shout it out with video after video on why it sucks to alter what seems to be the complete opposite.

    I seriously don’t get what the standards where suppose to be, but IMO and seems like many others TRoS has succeeded against these headwinds.
    From what I've observed, these people need TROS to have been a failure, whether it be them not being able to accept that it wasn't for them and/or hating Disney for making the movies in the first place. It's essentially a worldview thing, hence why they cannot just say they didn't like it and let go.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    The only positive Thing is that we still did not get the "Disney bought tickets to bolster numbers" idiocy that happened after Captain Marvel made Money after hordes of People on YouTube alone tried to make Money with Video after Video About CM certain to lose Money
    Yeah, some people would rather believe lies then a truth they don't like.
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  3. #333
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    Disney could have actually slept on a considerably bigger pile of money, especially in merchandise sales, and especially among the female and non-white markets that was ostensibly a target of the current LFL branch, but nope they decided the world didn’t need a female Skywalker main hero, but could definitely stand to have an awesome black male lead replaced in their priorities and praises with an underwritten and vile sad white guy who could then have a Nazi romance kiss with the main heroine he tortured.

    Yeah, I’m bitter.

    But yes, TROS is most definitely a financial success. But the diminishing returns mark how the brand has totally ceded it’s side and glory to Marvel, and that it’s luster has faded from where it was right after TFA and Rogue One, and yeah, we had spinoff and other future film endeavors likely cancelled to make sure that the trickle of prestige out of the brand doesn’t become more of a stream.

    This thing made money. And it has fans who can enjoy it.

    It’s also a disappointment compared to what it could have been, and it has toxic issues that arguably defeated the entire point of casting Daisy Ridley and John Boyega as the leads for TFA, and the brand has lost what was an almost divine aura from when it launched, largely because TROS was an overblown and artificial sequel to TLJ, and TLJ was a bad sequel to TFA, which was already dubious but promising sequel to the OT.

    Gen X proved that after decades of whining about the PT they could make an also profitable mess ina. Different way from Lucas, but while Lucas owns a large share of Millenial fans’ childhoods, that’s not nearly as true about the Zillenials and the ST.
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  4. #334
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    I think the stuff with the kids at the end of the film was mostly saying that Luke's final stand would inspire others. It's kind of one of the themes of the movie: "We are the spark that will bring the first order down" etc. Although the force thing happens, the rest of the scene seemed focus on Luke's thing and the Resistance ring, and possibly the Falcon is intended to be the shooting star.


    I think it's a plot thread that would've had more payoff in Colin's script but it's mostly just shows up at the end of ROS with the galactic fleet just deciding to join the resistance at the last minute.
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  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Disney could have actually slept on a considerably bigger pile of money, especially in merchandise sales, and especially among the female and non-white markets that was ostensibly a target of the current LFL branch, but nope they decided the world didn’t need a female Skywalker main hero, but could definitely stand to have an awesome black male lead replaced in their priorities and praises with an underwritten and vile sad white guy who could then have a Nazi romance kiss with the main heroine he tortured.



    Yeah, I’m bitter.

    But yes, TROS is most definitely a financial success. But the diminishing returns mark how the brand has totally ceded it’s side and glory to Marvel, and that it’s luster has faded from where it was right after TFA and Rogue One, and yeah, we had spinoff and other future film endeavors likely cancelled to make sure that the trickle of prestige out of the brand doesn’t become more of a stream.

    This thing made money. And it has fans who can enjoy it.

    It’s also a disappointment compared to what it could have been, and it has toxic issues that arguably defeated the entire point of casting Daisy Ridley and John Boyega as the leads for TFA, and the brand has lost what was an almost divine aura from when it launched, largely because TROS was an overblown and artificial sequel to TLJ, and TLJ was a bad sequel to TFA, which was already dubious but promising sequel to the OT.

    Gen X proved that after decades of whining about the PT they could make an also profitable mess ina. Different way from Lucas, but while Lucas owns a large share of Millenial fans’ childhoods, that’s not nearly as true about the Zillenials and the ST.

    • I like it when my favourite films are successful. But box office does not equal quality. I didn’t expect this film to make as much money as the previous ones. In fact most sequels don’t. That being said I am very happy that this film did make money. It opens the door to more intelligent and complex films. And shows that films don't have to be catered to 15 year old boys to make a profit.
    • I also find it amusing that the same people who have a problem with Luke being written as a tired and burnt out 50 something in TLJ . Are the same people who are okay with Luke being a dead beat dad. Impregnating (or abandoning) his wife/girl friend. And hooking up with a woman who would abandon a 5 year old child to work in a junk yard.
    • Rey’s being a born Palpatine shouldn’t detract from who she is, and the fact that she is the hero of the story and the most popular character in the series. Like Luke said in TROS ‘somethings are stronger than blood’. The 3 films have shown that Rey is the ultimate self made woman. Rey’s personal growth, her maturity from plucky girl to confident woman at ease in her own skin, her leadership skills, her compassion, her joie de vivre 'her resilience, her choices, her forging of her character and the skills she learned make her a great character. And an inspiration to many, everyone, who learn that you don't have to let a bad start determine how you end up. You can choose who you want to be.
    • John Boyega was never meant to be the lead. It was always Adam Driver. And if you are going to talk about casting people based on the box office then the male of the film should have been an Asian. Since outside of the US the biggest movie is China and Japan. Although most of the cast is British and the UK does account for a large chunk of the box office. But SW apparently has never been popular inside China.
    • Kylo never tortured Rey, he went inside her head to get information, but he never hurt her. But he was much gentler with her than he was with Poe and Finn, and he never let his men rough her up. In fact it’s been greatly implied that he’s been protecting her all along. Which accounts for her question to him in TROS as to why he didn’t kill her when he had the opportunity.
    Last edited by Mia; 02-23-2020 at 12:30 PM.
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  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    • I like it when my favourite films are successful. But box office does not equal quality. I didn’t expect this film to make as much money as the previous ones. In fact most sequels don’t. That being said I am very happy that this film did make money. It opens the door to more intelligent and complex films. And shows that films don't have to be catered to 15 year old boys to make a profit.
    Huh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    • I also find it amusing that the same people who have a problem with Luke being written as a tired and burnt out 50 something in TLJ . Are the same people who are okay with Luke being a dead beat dad. Impregnating (or abandoning) his wife/girl friend. And hooking up with a woman who would abandon a 5 year old child to work in a junk yard.
    Are they the same people? I know the fans who were theorizing had quite a few different viewpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    • Rey’s being a born Palpatine shouldn’t detract from who she is, and the fact that she is the hero of the story and the most popular character in the series. Like Luke said in TROS ‘somethings are stronger than blood’. The 3 films have shown that Rey is the ultimate self made woman. Rey’s personal growth, her maturity from plucky girl to confident woman at ease in her own skin, her leadership skills, her compassion, her joie de vivre 'her resilience, her choices, her forging of her character and the skills she learned make her a great character. And an inspiration to many, everyone, who learn that you don't have to let a bad start determine how you end up. You can choose who you want to be.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    John Boyega was never meant to be the lead. It was always Adam Driver. And if you are going to talk about casting people based on the box office then the male of the film should have been an Asian. Since outside of the US the biggest movie is China and Japan. Although most of the cast is British and the UK does account for a large chunk of the box office. But SW apparently has never been popular inside China.
    Proof, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    • Kylo never tortured Rey, he went inside her head to get information, but he never hurt her. But he was much gentler with her than he was with Poe and Finn, and he never let his men rough her up. In fact it’s been greatly implied that he’s been protecting her all along. Which accounts for her question to him in TROS as to why he didn’t kill her when he had the opportunity.
    That is torture.
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  7. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia View Post
    That being said I am very happy that this film did make money. It opens the door to more intelligent and complex films.
    ROS is intelligent and complex

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    ROS is intelligent and complex
    Well, when you set the bar this low, any follow up film in the franchise will seem "intelligent and complex" by comparison.

    But hey, at least now Disney has an excuse to publish multiple books and comics addressing every little nitpick and plothole created by this film.
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  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    ROS is intelligent and complex
    I'd say it's pretty complex. Needlessly and stupidly complex, but complex nonetheless.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I'd say it's pretty complex. Needlessly and stupidly complex, but complex nonetheless.
    “Complicated” might be a better word than complex: the film has the intricacies and winding plot points and character arcs that both words imply, but the actual depth that is inherent to “complexity” is highly debatable. TROS is ambitious, but I’d still feel like its a film that is extremely vulnerable to even cursory critical evaluation - dig anywhere below the surface, and things start to fall apart. It’s a combination of sometimes redundant ideas and themes meeting with simply underwritten or easily contradicted arcs and priorities... especially as a finale to multiple films. That’s partially why, even as a financial success, it seems like a pale and puny thing if compared to its Marvel peers, Infinity War and Endgame, and why it doesn’t seem to have reached the box office potential it should have as a sequel to the more successful TLJ and as the finale to TFA’s insane box office take.

    Part of its problem stems from the fact that it’s trying to combine the priorities and ideas of TFA and TLJ... two films that both *had* complexity, but in different areas, and with TLJ often rejecting, downplaying, or ignoring TFA’s complexities for the characters it didn’t care for that much - while TFA had limited the complexity of the setup already, and where TLJ didn’t try and add any.

    TFA’s complexities are found in the emotional character arcs of the new guys - Rey, Finn, and Kylo. Rey’s a hard edged scavenger torn between wanderlust and denial to stay and wait for a family she secretly knows aren’t coming back, who’s emotional arc reaches a combination catharsis and endangerment when she realizes that Finn, Han and Chewie... right as Kylo starts killing them. Finn goes on a massive character arc from a socked still nameless and faceless henchman to his own man and a hero willing to scream defiance and charge a superior opponent for others’ sake. And Kylo has his only real film where the pull to the light seems like a genuine temptation for him, before the sheer depths of his fanaticism make it clear this is one messed up dude. But the film also clearly wants familiar archetypes and external conflicts for the ST, so we’ve got Empire 2.0 and Rebellion 2.0, without much world building for either.

    ... And then TLJ comes in, doubles down on the Galactic setup being dogmatically familiar (even trying to rechristen the Resistance a new Rebllion), embraces the most juvenile and prosaic interpretation it can of the First a Order as a threat (more akin to the bumbling parts of the Empire rather than the more competent ones.) It then promptly downgrades Rey’s complexity to that of a naive and foolish girl easily enamored with Neo-Nazis and acting more like a fan girl who wants to belong to a great legacy than someone who wants family, otherwise Kylo might be facing a *lot* more hostility for the threat he poses to her friends. Finn just gets his complexity dismissed and portrayed as a comedic coward and token black guy going on a Saturday Morning Cartoon journey that does nothing worthwhile. Kylo remains roughly the same... but just repeats a lesser version of his first film journey and has more weight placed on his shoulders because the film thinks he’s more complex than he actually is. Luke’s story, while dubious in characterization, has genuine depth... and then he dies.

    TROS is stuck trying to *pretend* Kylo/Ben is deeper than “dude magically made evil by Palpatine then magically made good by Leia,” that Rey has a relationship with him of some depth beyond “dude she is attracted to because magic can ignore all the just horrible things he’s done and the lack of actually good traits she knows about him,” while following TLJ in valuing Poe above Finn and still just making them “dudes who aren’t in the Force plot, so they don’t matter as much.”

    That lack of depth is why TROS can be a good blockbuster, but not really a great one. Like, Rey kisses Kylo because the film wants depth there... but there isn’t any. Rey ends the film calling herself a Skywalker because the film needs that to pretend the family had a good ending... but it does so in a way that’s just redundantly similar to Luke’s own story in the OT, truncated down to one film instead of three. It tires to have a complicated chess master plan by Palpatine... but it’s really just a convoluted storyline designed to give Ben a reason to be cheered for but not steal Rey’s spotlight.

    TLJ wound up losing to Black Panther because BP had more depth on *all* its characters, and especially in its themes and progressive messagings (TLJ’s progressive nature is more surface level and privileged than genuine, and it’s in fact less progressive than TFA). TROS is laughably weaker in performance than Endgame because it has to deal with a lack of depth caused by TFA and TLJ’s warring perspectives.
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  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    “Complicated” might be a better word than complex:
    I don't find it even that complicated, the pacing is pretty fast in the first half of the movie but that's it.

    Ok and they throw some new stuff (like the Force Dyade) at you, without setting them up or explaining them properly.

    But otherwise the RoS is pretty average.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    I'd say it's pretty complex. Needlessly and stupidly complex, but complex nonetheless.
    As someone who likes the movie, I will agree that the plot has its share of problems, esp. in terms of having a lot of pieces that are hard to fit together.
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